While Dassault is best know for their lighter Mirage series planes like the III, 5, F1, and 2000, their other larger concepts were relatively forgotten with no orders to start production. First is the Mirage F2, a scaled up two-seat F1 powered by the Pratt & Whitney TF306 designed for use as an attack jet based on a request by the Israeli Air Force. Next is the Mirage G, a swing-wing tactical bomber powered by two M53, however there was a version powered by the Pratt & Whitney TF306 that was meant as a naval jet to replace the F-8. Lastly we have the Mirage 4000, a scaled up Mirage 2000 designed as an F-15 competitor. What would it take for any of these aircraft to be more popular and get them into production, who are some potential customers.
The Other Mirages
- Thread starter Have Blue-117
- Start date
Archibald
Banned
Oh well, I can certainly try and help a bit.
The bottom line of the story is that, between 1962 and 1982 (before the Rafale come in, really) Dassault build a lot of prototypes for the Armée de l'air only to discover three things
a) budget was the only limit
b) the Armée de l'Air (AdA) didn't really knew what it wanted
c) requirements changed every two or three years.
Look at it this way. As of 1961 the AdA wanted VTOLs. So Dassault turned the old Mirage III demonstrator (the III-01) into a VTOL by adding eight RB-108s. That become the Balzac V.
Bigger and better VTOL Mirages were to follow, the III-V, a bloated monster of which two prototypes were build but went nowhere.
Once VTOL proved impossible, STOL become fashionable, and there a whole bunch of prototypes were build - swept wings with flaps, the F- family, and VG.
Mirage F1
Mirage F2
Mirage F3
Mirage G
Mirage G8
Among many others projects.
Early in the 70's the AdA started a quest for a twin-jet heavy fighter it could hardly afford (and still can't really today, the Rafale is taking a heavy toll on the AdA budget, and doesn't sell on export markets), and that resulted in
- the VG Mirage G8
- a fixed wing VG, the ACF
- the Mirage 2000 great brother, the Mirage 4000
- and finally, the Rafale.
There are tons of possible whatifs. Dassault was rather prolific.
The Mirage F2 two-seat strike fighter (with a F-111 TF-30 turbofan build under licence by SNECMA) was proposed to Israel circa 1965 for the role that ultimately went to the Phantoms.
The Mirage F1 should never have existed in the first place. A F2 interceptor was to be build instead, the Mirage F3. But Dassault felt the TF-30 was American, and thus troublesome, so he proposed an Atar-powered smaller interceptor, the F1.
The Mirage G (essentially a VG Mirage F2) landed at 110 kt only, slow enough to interest many navies. Back in 1970 RAAF test pilots were send to France to test the prototype. Vought actively worked with Dassault team during the Tomcat competition circa 1968.
Lastly the French Navy was also extremely interested in having Mirage G on its carriers, but had no money for that.
Same goes for the more powerful F1-M53 that lost the "deal of the century" to the F-16 in 1974. It was the French Navy that asked for it in the first place, since a naval F1 would have been to heavy for the anemic Atar 9K-50.
The twin-Atar Mirage G8 still held europe speed record, Mach 2.34 on July 13, 1973. The G8 was to replace the Mirage IV in the nuclear strike role, but there was no money for it.
The ACF and Mirage 4000 were extremely powerful, twin-M53 heavy fighters, the former with swept wings, the latter with a delta wing. The ACF never flew; the 80% complete prototype was scrapped after Dassault proposed the 2000 / 4000 to replace it.
Indeed French President Giscard d'Estaing, facing the 1973 economic shock, went for the cheap Mirage 2000 instead; leaving the F-15 class Mirage 4000 for export.
Yeah, what a bright idea.
Despite excellent contacts with both Saudis and IRaqis, not a single 4000 was ever sold abroad.
Per lack of Mirage 4000 however, a frustrated AdA went for a subscale, less expensive machine - that become the Rafale... and this time they enlisted the French Navy to enlarge the numbers. Still as of today the Rafale cost an arm and a leg, without any export sale.
The basic Mirage III / F1 / 2000 philosophy seems to have passed to SAAB's Grippen...
The bottom line of the story is that, between 1962 and 1982 (before the Rafale come in, really) Dassault build a lot of prototypes for the Armée de l'air only to discover three things
a) budget was the only limit
b) the Armée de l'Air (AdA) didn't really knew what it wanted
c) requirements changed every two or three years.
Look at it this way. As of 1961 the AdA wanted VTOLs. So Dassault turned the old Mirage III demonstrator (the III-01) into a VTOL by adding eight RB-108s. That become the Balzac V.
Bigger and better VTOL Mirages were to follow, the III-V, a bloated monster of which two prototypes were build but went nowhere.
Once VTOL proved impossible, STOL become fashionable, and there a whole bunch of prototypes were build - swept wings with flaps, the F- family, and VG.
Mirage F1
Mirage F2
Mirage F3
Mirage G
Mirage G8
Among many others projects.
Early in the 70's the AdA started a quest for a twin-jet heavy fighter it could hardly afford (and still can't really today, the Rafale is taking a heavy toll on the AdA budget, and doesn't sell on export markets), and that resulted in
- the VG Mirage G8
- a fixed wing VG, the ACF
- the Mirage 2000 great brother, the Mirage 4000
- and finally, the Rafale.
There are tons of possible whatifs. Dassault was rather prolific.
The Mirage F2 two-seat strike fighter (with a F-111 TF-30 turbofan build under licence by SNECMA) was proposed to Israel circa 1965 for the role that ultimately went to the Phantoms.
The Mirage F1 should never have existed in the first place. A F2 interceptor was to be build instead, the Mirage F3. But Dassault felt the TF-30 was American, and thus troublesome, so he proposed an Atar-powered smaller interceptor, the F1.
The Mirage G (essentially a VG Mirage F2) landed at 110 kt only, slow enough to interest many navies. Back in 1970 RAAF test pilots were send to France to test the prototype. Vought actively worked with Dassault team during the Tomcat competition circa 1968.
Lastly the French Navy was also extremely interested in having Mirage G on its carriers, but had no money for that.
Same goes for the more powerful F1-M53 that lost the "deal of the century" to the F-16 in 1974. It was the French Navy that asked for it in the first place, since a naval F1 would have been to heavy for the anemic Atar 9K-50.
The twin-Atar Mirage G8 still held europe speed record, Mach 2.34 on July 13, 1973. The G8 was to replace the Mirage IV in the nuclear strike role, but there was no money for it.
The ACF and Mirage 4000 were extremely powerful, twin-M53 heavy fighters, the former with swept wings, the latter with a delta wing. The ACF never flew; the 80% complete prototype was scrapped after Dassault proposed the 2000 / 4000 to replace it.
Indeed French President Giscard d'Estaing, facing the 1973 economic shock, went for the cheap Mirage 2000 instead; leaving the F-15 class Mirage 4000 for export.
Yeah, what a bright idea.
Despite excellent contacts with both Saudis and IRaqis, not a single 4000 was ever sold abroad.
Per lack of Mirage 4000 however, a frustrated AdA went for a subscale, less expensive machine - that become the Rafale... and this time they enlisted the French Navy to enlarge the numbers. Still as of today the Rafale cost an arm and a leg, without any export sale.
The basic Mirage III / F1 / 2000 philosophy seems to have passed to SAAB's Grippen...
Archibald
Banned
as for the engines... SNECMA was always the weak point. To Dassault fury, Mirages always lacked power.
The Atar reached its limit with the 9K50 variant, 7200 kg of thrust (that power the Mirage F1)
So SNECMA started a long quest to replace it with a turbofan. Because they had to learn, they went for a TF-30 production under licence. The TF-30 powered first a Mirage III testbed (yes, a Mirage III with a Tomcat turbofan, how about that !)
That was the fat-ass Mirage III-T.
The TF-30 was to power the VTOL Mirage III-V that went nowhere. Instead the TF-30 ended on the Mirage F2 two-seat strike fighter and the VG variant of it, the Mirage G. A single seat interceptor F2, the Mirage F3, was abandonned in favor of the Mirage F1 (that should never have existed in the first place !)
That bring us to 1969.
That year SNECMA was ordered to build itw own, smaller turbofan, that become the M53. The M53 first flew on the Mirage F1E that lost to the F-16, and later it powered both Mirage 2000 and 4000.
The Atar reached its limit with the 9K50 variant, 7200 kg of thrust (that power the Mirage F1)
So SNECMA started a long quest to replace it with a turbofan. Because they had to learn, they went for a TF-30 production under licence. The TF-30 powered first a Mirage III testbed (yes, a Mirage III with a Tomcat turbofan, how about that !)
That was the fat-ass Mirage III-T.
The TF-30 was to power the VTOL Mirage III-V that went nowhere. Instead the TF-30 ended on the Mirage F2 two-seat strike fighter and the VG variant of it, the Mirage G. A single seat interceptor F2, the Mirage F3, was abandonned in favor of the Mirage F1 (that should never have existed in the first place !)
That bring us to 1969.
That year SNECMA was ordered to build itw own, smaller turbofan, that become the M53. The M53 first flew on the Mirage F1E that lost to the F-16, and later it powered both Mirage 2000 and 4000.
Delta Force
Banned
The Mirage G might have been an interesting choice. It was between the MiG-23 and F-111 in size, around where the later Panavia Tornado was. I wonder how it would have compared to the Tornado?
The Mirage F2 and F3 shared the same fuselage as the Mirage G (they were actually developed first). I'm not sure if it would be better to build those or simply go with the Mirage G, as it might actually lower costs to simply go with the variable geometry model.
As for the Mirage 4000, I'm not sure France would need something like that, and there is always a smaller market for heavy fighters. They'd have to sell them to the nations that have gone for the Su-27 family, because the F-15 market was so small and Japan, the RoK, and Israel are probably going to buy American.
The Mirage F2 and F3 shared the same fuselage as the Mirage G (they were actually developed first). I'm not sure if it would be better to build those or simply go with the Mirage G, as it might actually lower costs to simply go with the variable geometry model.
As for the Mirage 4000, I'm not sure France would need something like that, and there is always a smaller market for heavy fighters. They'd have to sell them to the nations that have gone for the Su-27 family, because the F-15 market was so small and Japan, the RoK, and Israel are probably going to buy American.
Archibald
Banned
(Sorry for the long and numerous posts !)
I should try a Mirage-wank, or at least an alt-Mirage legacy, someday...
I have an old TL somewhere on another board where the Mirage F1-M53 pulls a Rafale in the late 70's.
By pulling a Rafale, I mean that a single machine replace 90% of the AdA and French Navy varied collection of strike fighters and interceptors.
The Rafale by itself replaced nothing less than
- the last Mirage IIIs of all kind
- all the F1s
- most of the 2000s
- all Jaguars
- all Mirage IV
- all Super Etendards
- all Crusaders
The Mirage F1M53 could do mostly the same except for the Mirage IV... twenty years before OTL, and at a much lower cost for the AdA.
I should try a Mirage-wank, or at least an alt-Mirage legacy, someday...
I have an old TL somewhere on another board where the Mirage F1-M53 pulls a Rafale in the late 70's.
By pulling a Rafale, I mean that a single machine replace 90% of the AdA and French Navy varied collection of strike fighters and interceptors.
The Rafale by itself replaced nothing less than
- the last Mirage IIIs of all kind
- all the F1s
- most of the 2000s
- all Jaguars
- all Mirage IV
- all Super Etendards
- all Crusaders
The Mirage F1M53 could do mostly the same except for the Mirage IV... twenty years before OTL, and at a much lower cost for the AdA.
Archibald
Banned
Spot on. But I can tell you that circa 1986 Saudi Arabia was very close from buying the 4000.
As the story goes, Israel lobbied American Congress very hard that the Saudis could never have more than 60 F-15s in their inventory (the Peace Sun contracts, from memory). But 60 F-15s was too little for the Saudis, and we all know how that ended - with Tornado F3 through the Al Yamahmah contracts, before the restriction was lifted in the late 80's and more F-15s were sold to the Saudis.
Well, had the restrictions not be lifted, the Saudis perfectly knew that the 4000 absolutely and totally outperformed the Tornado F3. There was never any doubts on the subject.
They really wanted Mirage 4000s at some point, but Uncle Sam decided otherwise.And surely, there was not a single penny available in France to buy Mirage 4000 for the AdA. It was "Dassault: earn export orders, or burst" (sounds familiar ? history repeat itself with the Rafale...)
As for Iraq - late 1979 they were given a demonstration of the 4000 at Istres and were pretty stunned. Dassault test pilot Jean Marie Saget reminds how he was supposed to hit 50 000 feet and mach 1.8 that day, and ended well above 60 000 feet and Mach 2. The 4000 performance was absolutely stunning, and the F1s Dassault sold to Iraq were the most advanced fighters of the era, perhaps better than early F-16s. They even managed to ambush and kill a pair of Iranian Tomcats late in the war, circa 1987.
Iraq however needed a true Tomcat killer, and the 4000 was to be that killer.
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Delta Force
Banned
Spot on. But I can tell you that circa 1986 Saudi Arabia was very close from buying the 4000.
As the story goes, Israel lobbied American Congress very hard that the Saudis could never have more than 60 F-15s in their inventory (the Peace Sun contracts, from memory). But 60 F-15s was too little for the Saudis, and we all know how that ended - with Tornado F3 through the Al Yamahmah contracts, before the restriction was lifted in the late 80's and more F-15s were sold to the Saudis.
Well, had the restrictions not be lifted, the Saudis perfectly knew that the 4000 absolutely and totally outperformed the Tornado F3. There was never any doubts on the subject.
And surely, there was not a single penny available in France to buy Mirage 4000 for the AdA. It was "Dassault: earn export orders, or burst" (sounds familiar ? history repeat itself with the Rafale...)
As for Iraq - late 1979 they were given a demonstration of the 4000 at Istres and were pretty stunned. Dassault test pilot Jean Marie Saget reminds how he was supposed to hit 50 000 feet and mach 1.8 that day, and ended well above 60 000 feet and Mach 2. The 4000 performance was absolutely stunning, and the F1s Dassault sold to Iraq were the most advanced fighters of the era, perhaps better than early F-16s. They even managed to ambush and kill a pair of Iranian Tomcats late in the war, circa 1987.
Iraq however needed a true Tomcat killer, and the 4000 was to be that killer.
Saudi Arabia and Iraq are likely customers and would fit in with French foreign policy. I'm not sure who else would have need of such a large aircraft though, and since it is so expensive the Saudis and Iraqis won't be buying too many. France will have to find more customers, and their existing base probably won't be too helpful. They'll have to somehow convince F-4 users and others to purchase new aircraft, no easy task seeing the scarce success the United States had with F-15 sales. Even when successful the F-15 wasn't a full replacement. Israel kept flying F-4s into the 2000s, and the RoK and Japan still fly F-4s.
other stranger version: the Mirage Join ventures
Dassault-Boeing: Mirage III W (the W stand for Wichita)
with an ATAR 9 B jet engine (to be built by Pratt & Withney) and Aïda radar (to be built by Hughes)
Dassault/Boeing/BAC: Mirage IIIV VTOL strike fighter. the RAF and RN show interest for this aircraft.
Dassault/BAC Mirage IVK.
After british labor government murdered the TSR.2 and P.1154,
Dassault offered an "Anglicized" version of a Mirage IV, with stretch fuselage to fit the Spey engine and flight computer and SLAR targeting system of TSR.2!
but labor government insist strenuous on F-111K...
but one of wildest Ideas was the Dassault study for Mach 3~4 interceptors on demand of French Airforce
what let to Dassault Mirage-750 design
Dassault-Boeing: Mirage III W (the W stand for Wichita)
with an ATAR 9 B jet engine (to be built by Pratt & Withney) and Aïda radar (to be built by Hughes)
Dassault/Boeing/BAC: Mirage IIIV VTOL strike fighter. the RAF and RN show interest for this aircraft.
Dassault/BAC Mirage IVK.
After british labor government murdered the TSR.2 and P.1154,
Dassault offered an "Anglicized" version of a Mirage IV, with stretch fuselage to fit the Spey engine and flight computer and SLAR targeting system of TSR.2!
but labor government insist strenuous on F-111K...
but one of wildest Ideas was the Dassault study for Mach 3~4 interceptors on demand of French Airforce
what let to Dassault Mirage-750 design
in 1960s Dassault proposed Mirage IVM, a single seat interceptor with for french aircraft carrier, based on Mirage IV !
it had to operate from new generation big aircraft carrier, never build...
interesting Dassault study use of J-57 engine for Mirage IVM
the Dassault Mirage G-2 has interesting connection with Panavia Tornado forerunner, the Anglo French Variable Geometry project. (AFVG)
In 1965 France and Britain study on supersonic fighter/bomber with Variable Geometry wing. to build by Dassault/BAC
but in 1966~67 thing went wrong the new the labor government insist strenuous on F-111K. even talk loud about cancelation of Anglo French Concorde and ELDO rocket.
Marcel Dassault began undermine the AFVG project in favor of his Mirage G-2 and F-1, while the French government threaten to sue british Government in case of Concorde and ELDO.
then in June 1967, the French government announced their withdrawal from the AFVG project ostensibly on grounds of cost.
the F-111K project the Concorde and ELDO problems, play also a role in this decision. Dassault got his G-2 project for french air force.
in the end, the F-111K project got canceled, the G-2 program got under budget axe of new french president Valéry Giscard d'Estaing
the remains of AFVG study, were overwork by BAC what became later Panavia Tornado program
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Archibald
Banned
You're timing is wrong somewhere. As of 1970 emphasis had switched from the single engine Mirage G to the heavier Mirage G4/ G8, but Giscard did not become president before 1974.
Ah, the Mirage IVB. Much like the Mirage F1, the Mirage IVA (as we knew it) should never have existed in the first place. The Atars were fuel hogs that lacked power, and thus the C-135FR tankers later on.
But placing the French nuclear deterrent at the mercy of US turbojets was obviously not acceptable to De Gaulle. So the IVB was canned in favor of the Mirage IVA.
The Mirage IV started life as a heavier Mirage III, either with a single big engine or two turbojets. Somewhat ironically the Mirage IVC was rather similar, mass and dimension wise, to the Rafale... the AdA quest for a French Phantom / F-15 was quite a long one...
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Archibald
Banned
Mirages that never were (prototypes and projects)
- Mirage III-O with an Avon
- Mirage III-K with a Spey turbofan
- Mirage III-W with a J-79, Boeing entry into the F-5 competition
- Mirage IVC (the French Phantom, 1959)
- Mirage IVM (naval variant of the above for the PA-58 Verdun nuclear strike carrier)
- Mirage IVB (60 tons, two J-75, 5000 km range)
For the Arrow fans: among turbojets considered was the Iroquois, but the J-75 was chosen instead. Olympus were also considered.
- Mirage IV* (twin Spey RAF Mirage IVA, post TSR-2 proposal)
- Mirage III-V
- Mirage F2
- Mirage F3
- Mirage G
- Mirage G4
- AFVG
- Mirage G8 01 (two seat) and 02 (single seat)
- Mirage F1-M53
- Mirage F1M (French navy)
- Mirage ACF
- Mirage 4000
I'm very tempted to dust of my old Mirage F1-M53 TL if anybody interested.
- Mirage III-O with an Avon
- Mirage III-K with a Spey turbofan
- Mirage III-W with a J-79, Boeing entry into the F-5 competition
- Mirage IVC (the French Phantom, 1959)
- Mirage IVM (naval variant of the above for the PA-58 Verdun nuclear strike carrier)
- Mirage IVB (60 tons, two J-75, 5000 km range)
For the Arrow fans: among turbojets considered was the Iroquois, but the J-75 was chosen instead. Olympus were also considered.
- Mirage IV* (twin Spey RAF Mirage IVA, post TSR-2 proposal)
- Mirage III-V
- Mirage F2
- Mirage F3
- Mirage G
- Mirage G4
- AFVG
- Mirage G8 01 (two seat) and 02 (single seat)
- Mirage F1-M53
- Mirage F1M (French navy)
- Mirage ACF
- Mirage 4000
I'm very tempted to dust of my old Mirage F1-M53 TL if anybody interested.
THX for correction, Archibald
my source was from a conversation with aircraft fanatic in Munich aircraft museum, several year ago.
Riain
Banned
The Mirage III-O Avon was so close to production that the RAAF Mirages were built with access panels designed for the Avon. Which became a real pain in the arse for maintainers when we went with the Atar at the last minute and none of the access panels lined up properly with the Atar bits that they wanted to get at.
The TF306 Mirages interest me. If it's true that they didn't go ahead because France didn't want to be beholden to the US for engines did they look at the British Spey as an alternative? Or is being beholden to the British for turbofans just as bad?
Edit, I see the Spey in Archibald's list. But IIUC the Spey was a much larger engine than the Atar, swapping an Atar for a Spey would involve a complete redesign of the airframe worse than when the J79 was swapped for the Spey in British Phantoms.
The TF306 Mirages interest me. If it's true that they didn't go ahead because France didn't want to be beholden to the US for engines did they look at the British Spey as an alternative? Or is being beholden to the British for turbofans just as bad?
Edit, I see the Spey in Archibald's list. But IIUC the Spey was a much larger engine than the Atar, swapping an Atar for a Spey would involve a complete redesign of the airframe worse than when the J79 was swapped for the Spey in British Phantoms.
Yes, Dassault wanted the Spey engine and also Pegasus BE-53 engine of Harrier, for french version of Harrier jet: the MD-610 Cavalier
but in time France had threaten Great Britian Labor government with lawsuit in order to save Concorde program…
here allot of politician, industrialist and so called "experts" blundered horrobly, had history went differently way
The RAF, RN, RAAF would fly with Mirage IIIK, IVK and G-8 version...
Delta Force
Banned
I recall reading something about French plans to purchase engines and/or a license for the Iroquois from Orenda. It would have been for two or three hundred engines. I don't remember which Mirage model it was going to be used on, but the Mirage IV seems right. The deal fell through due to questions over Canada's commitment to the Arrow and with it the Iroquois.