WI: Germanized Lithuania in the 14th century

What could have happend if the Teutonic Knights succeeded in germanizing the Grand Duchy of Lithuania by the 14th century?
Probably the existence of a big German state in OTL Baltic states-Belarus-Ukraine would have had a huge impact in the later developments in Russia, the HRE and the Ottoman expansion, and would have affected the Reformation too.
 
You could Germanize the nobility, but you could'nt do so to the entire place; the Teutonic Order was successful because the area it was working in has a low population (even for the time) and basically no native states; Lithuania on the other hand was moderately populous and had a history of organizes state-level society and had developed into a relatively stable (for the time) state by then.
 
By "Germanize", do you mean that everybody speaks German(like in Bavaria) or the local nobility speaks German and the peasants speak something else(like most of East Prussia)?
 
By "Germanize", do you mean that everybody speaks German(like in Bavaria) or the local nobility speaks German and the peasants speak something else(like most of East Prussia)?

Maybe something mixed. Imagine that the local nobility is Germanized and boost some German settlement in Lithuanian territory, specially artisans and "medium-class" urbane citizens. Peasants can retain original languages, but should learn German if they want to 'scalate' to higher social stages.
 
Well, you could certainly get a state with a German ruling class, as Latvia and Estonia were until the 20C.

The important thing is that this gives the TKs a continuous territory from the Gulf of Finland to East Prussia, and maybe further if this bigger state is able to beat off the Poles in 1466.

In the 16C the whole area turns Protestant, and you have a powerful Lutheran state on the northeast corner of Germany. Could be that Charles V (if not butterflied away) takes a bad beating and all Germany ends up Protestant.
 
Well, you could certainly get a state with a German ruling class, as Latvia and Estonia were until the 20C.

If this state manages to get bigger and stronger, the Germanization could go deeper through the centuries, not just sticking to a minor ruling class like in OTL Estonia and Latvia.

The important thing is that this gives the TKs a continuous territory from the Gulf of Finland to East Prussia, and maybe further if this bigger state is able to beat off the Poles in 1466.

Certainly the chances of defeating Poland are greater in this scenario.

In the 16C the whole area turns Protestant, and you have a powerful Lutheran state on the northeast corner of Germany. Could be that Charles V (if not butterflied away) takes a bad beating and all Germany ends up Protestant.

A big Protestant German state like this will distort for sure the history in both HRE and Austria, possibly clearing all the German sphere of Catholics. It could also affect the Ottoman expansion as well as the Russian.
 
What could have happend if the Teutonic Knights succeeded in germanizing the Grand Duchy of Lithuania by the 14th century?
Probably the existence of a big German state in OTL Baltic states-Belarus-Ukraine would have had a huge impact in the later developments in Russia, the HRE and the Ottoman expansion, and would have affected the Reformation too.

How could have Lithuania been conquered, I wonder.

Lithuania presented a number of problems to the Teutonic Knights, of which here are several.

It was incredibly, and I emphasize this, incredibly hard to capture Lithuanian Castles in this period. Almost impossible, and for one simple reason: logistics.

Lithuania was big, and its Castles were far apart and often surrounded by wilderness. This really hurt into the supplies of any siege nescessary to take a castle, and sieges were basically the only way to go in this period. You always had to ship in the supplies for the siege through long distances.

Also, you are dealing with very limited campaigning season here. One in the depth of winter, since you can ride along the rivers and the ground is solid, and the other time in High Summer, since its mostly dry but you have to move through the woods.

Any other time of the year and you are dealing with mud. Tons of it.

Meanwhile, Lithuania mostly rules Orthodox peoples in this period. With the exception of the upper nobility, and places like Samogitia, Lithuania was a primarily Orthodox state (hell, even some of the nobility converted to Orthodoxy).

And the funny thing was, the Orthodox peoples, even the churchmen, preferred the pagan Lithuanians to the Catholic Knights because the Lithuanians were smart enough not to bother them.

Speaking of Samogitia, there is them as well. The Samogitian's were fanatical in their beliefs, and they were exceptionally difficult to get to because they moved deeper into the woods when attacked and they were positively vicious when they retaliated.

There is also the issue of how the Grand Princes of Lithuania acted.

Almost all of them, and from the very beginning, played to Catholic Europe's prejudices, both positive and negative. They constantly flirted with the idea of becoming Catholic (though they only became serious about it around Jogaila's time) in order to play to Catholic Europe's hope and better side.

"Why look," they said,"the Lithuanians want to convert. Stop that nasty crusade at once so that we can talk to them like brothers. If we only stopped attacking them, they would convert peaceably."

This happened again and again, and the only people who stopped falling for it (and it took them a while not to) were the Knights. Even then, their cynicism was not taken well back home.
 
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How could have Lithuania been conquered, I wonder.

Lithuania presented a number of problems to the Teutonic Knights, of which here are several.

It was incredibly, and I emphasize this, incredibly hard to capture Lithuanian Castles in this period. Almost impossible, and for one simple reason: logistics.

Lithuania was big, and its Castles were far apart and often surrounded by wilderness. This really hurt into the supplies of any siege nescessary to take a castle, and sieges were basically the only way to go in this period. You always had to ship in the supplies for the siege through long distances.

Also, you are dealing with very limited campaigning season here. One in the depth of winter, since you can ride along the rivers and the ground is solid, and the other time in High Summer, since its mostly dry but you have to move through the woods.

Any other time of the year and you are dealing with mud. Tons of it.

Meanwhile, Lithuania mostly rules Orthodox peoples in this period. With the exception of the upper nobility, and places like Samogitia, Lithuania was a primarily Orthodox state (hell, even some of the nobility converted to Orthodoxy).

And the funny thing was, the Orthodox peoples, even the churchmen, preferred the pagan Lithuanians to the Catholic Knights because the Lithuanians were smart enough not to bother them.

Speaking of Samogitia, there is them as well. The Samogitian's were fanatical in their beliefs, and they were exceptionally difficult to get to because they moved deeper into the woods when attacked and they were positively vicious when they retaliated.

There is also the issue of how the Grand Princes of Lithuania acted.

Almost all of them, and from the very beginning, played to Catholic Europe's prejudices, both positive and negative. They constantly flirted with the idea of becoming Catholic (though they only became serious about it around Jogaila's time) in order to play to Catholic Europe's hope and better side.

"Why look," they said,"the Lithuanians want to convert. Stop that nasty crusade at once so that we can talk to them like brothers. If we only stopped attacking them, they would convert peaceably."

This happened again and again, and the only people who stopped falling for it (and it took them a while not to) were the Knights. Even then, their cynicism was not taken well back home.

The concept of Germanizing Lithuania (or any other country) does not imply the fact of invading it. In fact, the worst way of Germanizing whatever is through violence, as you may obtain just the opposite effect.

There are many other alternative (and more effective ways) to do so: marry Jogaila with a Teutonic noble, Germanize the upper Lithuanian nobility, make Lithuania more dependent on Teutonic assistance etc etc.
 
The concept of Germanizing Lithuania (or any other country) does not imply the fact of invading it. In fact, the worst way of Germanizing whatever is through violence, as you may obtain just the opposite effect.

There are many other alternative (and more effective ways) to do so: marry Jogaila with a Teutonic noble, Germanize the upper Lithuanian nobility, make Lithuania more dependent on Teutonic assistance etc etc.

Except in the case of the Teutonic Knights, Germanization always came at the edge of the sword. This wasn't Poland, Hungary, or Bohemia inviting Germans to be burghers in their cities to improve their economies, it was the Knights job to conquer Pagan Lithuania. A whole reason Jogaila chose Catholicism was to screw over the Knights by denying them their purpose.

Why would Jogaila marry a the sister or daughter of a Knight, or even just a German princess in general?

He, and the the Lithuanians, hated the Knights. Almost all their neighbours did. He and his family had been fighting them for generations.

Marrying a German princess has no benefit to him because he doesn't really border the Empire, while marrying a Polish or Russian princess does. That's why he married Jadwiga OTL, because he gained a natural ally and gained a whole Kingdom out of it. Marrying a Russian princess makes him more amenable to his Orthodox subjects.

Jogaila and his family were usually looking out for number 1, and marrying into either Poland or Russian families supported that. Somehow marrying into the Teutonic Knights comes with an awful lot of strings and doesn't really give a net benefit.
 
I would add that if the Knights take Lithuania (which I think they quite have to for the whole Germanization thing to have a chance) it would only involve Lithuania proper, and, most likely, not much of the larger Lithuanian realm in present-day Belarus (more or less). Getting much land past the area of Vilnius is going to be a major challenge, and the local Ruthenian princes would have options to look at if Lithuania "fails" them. Poland, or even the Khans, woul be prbably better choices than the Knights.
Or maybe an independent (White?) Ruthenia.
 
I would add that if the Knights take Lithuania (which I think they quite have to for the whole Germanization thing to have a chance) it would only involve Lithuania proper, and, most likely, not much of the larger Lithuanian realm in present-day Belarus (more or less). Getting much land past the area of Vilnius is going to be a major challenge, and the local Ruthenian princes would have options to look at if Lithuania "fails" them. Poland, or even the Khans, woul be prbably better choices than the Knights.
Or maybe an independent (White?) Ruthenia.



Iirc they actually had "Lithuania proper" from 1382 to 1411. It was ceded to them so that Lithuania could seek expansion to the east.
 
Iirc they actually had "Lithuania proper" from 1382 to 1411. It was ceded to them so that Lithuania could seek expansion to the east.

Not really.

The Knights were given Samogitia, which at the time was not the center of power for the Lithuanians. That would have been Vilnius.

690px-Teutonic_Order_1410.png


Samogitia was not the center of Lithuanian power, but what it was was the beating heart of Lithuanian paganism. As I mentioned above, the Samogitians were fanatical in their faith, and Samogitia was primarily wildnerness with very little organization.

All the Knights gained out of it was vast tracts of villages that were comprised of people who hated you the the most. So, taking it fulfilled the duty of trying to convert them, but all in all it was a giant pain in the ass for the Knights.
 
Maybe one possible way would have been an earlier (before 1380) transformation of the Monastic state of the Knights into an average and less aggressive dynastic one, just like an early Kingdom of Prussia with some vassal duchies (Livland etc.) given to the more prominent Knights.

Playing the right cards, they could have confronted Poland and Lithuania instead of letting them to ally, weakening both in the process.
 
Maybe one possible way would have been an earlier (before 1380) transformation of the Monastic state of the Knights into an average and less aggressive dynastic one, just like an early Kingdom of Prussia with some vassal duchies (Livland etc.) given to the more prominent Knights.

Playing the right cards, they could have confronted Poland and Lithuania instead of letting them to ally, weakening both in the process.

Except there was no incentive for them to do that.

The Knights relied on outside funding and support for their wars so that they could keep fighting. As long as they were a group of religiously inspired Knights, they got that foreign support.

Men like Henry V of England brought English longbowmen and played key roles in the victories of the Knights. He wasn't the only one.

But the reason these men came was that the Knights were a Crusading Order.

If the Knights are successful (as they were in OTL up to Grunwald), then there is no incentive to change what was for them a successful formula.
 
Except there was no incentive for them to do that.

The Knights relied on outside funding and support for their wars so that they could keep fighting. As long as they were a group of religiously inspired Knights, they got that foreign support.

Men like Henry V of England brought English longbowmen and played key roles in the victories of the Knights. He wasn't the only one.

But the reason these men came was that the Knights were a Crusading Order.

If the Knights are successful (as they were in OTL up to Grunwald), then there is no incentive to change what was for them a successful formula.

Unless some of the Knights would have developed the ambition of overruling the rest, just like happened in some Christian feuds during the Middle East Crusades.

We could imagine that some Polish/Lithuanian/whatever nobles could have agreed with some Knights to establish an alliance and establish a dynastic state where they could rule and gain more power. Both sides could win with this: the rest of the Knights are butterflied away by the 'upgraded' Knights, so these become more porwerful and the local nobilities ensure that the Knights are no longer a threat for them.
 
Interesting thread!

There were at least one certain example of an attempt to introduce Germanization (via Teutonic Order). After the "formal" baptism, Vytautas the Great eventually centralized the country by using similar to TO model. Looking from cultural point of view we see that castles, notably Trakai, Vilnius (XV) also were built by TO in the same manner. Problem that in ± 1427 Lithuanian slaughtered almost all christians, particularly in Western Lithuania (Samogitia), Northern part of LT. Southern part of present-day Lithuanians territory remained pagan (Bishops from Czech wrote about it). The main issue was connected to the fact that pre-christian GDL (Lithuania propria) country and society in general was based on pagan culture and it turns out that society consisted of "free folks" - an opposite to TO/Germanization/. You can not use similar "nobility property" laws on the society which was based on a free people. Even Vytautas the Great knew that and for this reason he deported all local people from Trakai :)

Slavic parts of GDL were Christians so there was no reasonable background to adapt a germanization because it subsequently might end up in revolts (back than Moscow was starting to breath). Except economical model of "germanization" which was by the way more advanced. And the economcal model, which seemingly was a "copy -paste" from Teutons, was relatively adapted for a short period of time. It also contributed to the final centralization of really large country.

Invading. T.O have never won any decisive victory against Lithuanians. But if Livonian Order was not so dangerous for Lithuanians, particularly after all major victories against them, Teutons were a serious threat.
What they did was a raiding (raisse?). It affected some parts of LT that indigenous people was forced to emigrate from those places and in turn certain lands later became a "wild land" (dykra).
Some mind food:
1. Pretty intense emigration from other Baltic tribes, notably yotvingians, bartians (prussians), semigalians, curonians etc. Therefore GDL always had an experienced human resource, particularly from XIII-XIV centuries. There aren't, however, clear evidence that Slavic people would fight with Lithuanian especially against T.U. As far as I know, latter event was mentioned only once. I assume that a notion of "christian vs christian= not good" was in effect.
2. Militarization. It is a myth that pagans Lithuanians had no adequate military equipment. Keeping an eye on burial grounds since X cent. you wont find more militarized tribe than Lithuanians in whole Europe.
Probably the best known achievement is so-called "lithuanian" or "prussian" shield. Even in women grave you could find a knife or an axe.
In fact, it is understandable - in Christian Europe (XIII-XV) social stratification (farmers, nobles ets) was more developed and who was a knight and what kind of duties he had we all know. It was opposite in GDL.
3. Paganism. Lithuanian paganism was more pro-military ant it well served on so called "war-democrasy" and establishment of one local duke/political center (Myth of Sventaragis and Vilnius). Let's pay an attention that the baltic society was individualistic society.
4. Behaviour. Stubbornness still is something we appreciate most. Fanatical behaviour - furiosity - was a best thing that saved Lithuanian asses. Even in XX century, during Anti-Soviet Resistance, a fanatical furiosity became a true horror for soviets KGB soldiers.
5. Society. Differently than in "Christian world" (including Slavic territories of GDL), Lithuanian had not such perception "only noble knight must fights". Therefore you can be a farmer, a peasant "in the peace time" but when it is a war time (it lasted ± 200 years) - you a fighter. So there was no human limits to raise an army.
6. Forest, swamps - natural barriers. Usually T.O lost majority of small wars when they were forced to fight in the forest or on the swampy land.
7. Growing centralization.
 
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