The People Of Thunder

OK, this idea stems largely from pure author appeal. But I think it does have merit. If I get some good ideas, it might turn into a proper TL.

What would it take for the Pacific Northwest to develop an advanced civilization capable of fending off European advances? What I want is that in the allohistorical present, the majority of the people in the Pacific Northwest are of largely Native ancestry, speaking a Northwest language, and following a religion derived primarily from Native beliefs.

Now, in addition to being my homeland, the Northwest has a few things to recommend it for this scenario. The first is that it was one of the last parts of North America to be heavily settled by Europeans. Seattle was a young settlement at the time of the American Civil War. This gives us a lot of extra breathing room. Any major wars will happen in the 19th century. The area also has a good climate and historically supported a fairly dense population (by pre-Columbian standards).

I'd like to minimize the number of arbitrary changes. I'm hoping that we can find one change that produces others. Obviously, they need at least some technology. While my first thought would be metalworking or advanced agriculture, I'm now leaning towards writing.

The big problem the Northwest will first face from European settlers will be disease. That's why Europe found the Americas so empty: long before mass colonization really took off, smallpox and other diseases were spread by infected natives fleeing from pandemics in Mesoamerica along their trade routes north. According to my Ecology teacher (who used the Americas an example of what happens when disease hits virgin populations with no prior exposure), Native Americans lost 90 - 95% of their original population just from the diseases colonists brought over.

Maybe a good starting point would be to have a Northwest culture that domesticates a plant or animal they didn't in OTL that would allow for larger populations? All those filthy cities that spring up would be a good breeding ground for disease; giving natives both more natural resistance than they had OTL and diseases that could in turn lower European numbers.

Romana said:

The big problem the Northwest will first face from European settlers will be disease. That's why Europe found the Americas so empty: long before mass colonization really took off, smallpox and other diseases were spread by infected natives fleeing from pandemics in Mesoamerica along their trade routes north. According to my Ecology teacher (who used the Americas an example of what happens when disease hits virgin populations with no prior exposure), Native Americans lost 90 - 95% of their original population just from the diseases colonists brought over.

Maybe a good starting point would be to have a Northwest culture that domesticates a plant or animal they didn't in OTL that would allow for larger populations? All those filthy cities that spring up would be a good breeding ground for disease; giving natives both more natural resistance than they had OTL and diseases that could in turn lower European numbers.

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I've thought of that. And while certainly having a larger population will help, I think that the real advantage might be the fact that the Northwest would almost certainly be a maritime and mercantile power. Most likely, their initial exposure would have occurred in the 1500s from traders plying the Pacific Coast trade route from Mexico up to their homelands. When the Europeans first show up a century or two later, the epidemics are long over.

Any Native American victory over/holding back of the Europeans needs a POD that's pretty far back in the past, I think. Here's one idea:

The Native Americans basically had to carry everything on their backs, or in wheelbarrows and the like, because they didn't have any large draft animals. With a POD far enough back, they get large draft animals that can pull carts and wagons, thus making transport so much easier. They can also develop a wooden or stone plow, which would boost their agriculture significantly.

There would thus be more of them and they'd be healthier (more food), so a plague, while devastating, would still leave them with large numbers and with draft animals (that can perhaps be used as cavalry?). In this way they might have a good chance against the Europeans, especially given that it'll take decades (during which the population can recover) for Europeans to actually reach the Pacific northwest.

Lars Porsenna said:

Any Native American victory over/holding back of the Europeans needs a POD that's pretty far back in the past, I think. Here's one idea:

The Native Americans basically had to carry everything on their backs, or in wheelbarrows and the like, because they didn't have any large draft animals. With a POD far enough back, they get large draft animals that can pull carts and wagons, thus making transport so much easier. They can also develop a wooden or stone plow, which would boost their agriculture significantly.

There would thus be more of them and they'd be healthier (more food), so a plague, while devastating, would still leave them with large numbers and with draft animals (that can perhaps be used as cavalry?). In this way they might have a good chance against the Europeans, especially given that it'll take decades (during which the population can recover) for Europeans to actually reach the Pacific northwest.

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This likely requires a far enough POD that the native civilizations we know of existing in the America's (north America at least) wouldn't really exist.

I'm not sure if transport would be such a bottleneck in the Northwest. Assuming they stick to the coast, they can rely on water transport.

I'm still leaning towards writing as a candidate. Assuming that they developed a good writing system early enough, that would be a huge boost to technological innovation.

Rainbow Sparkle said:

This likely requires a far enough POD that the native civilizations we know of existing in the America's (north America at least) wouldn't really exist.

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Meh, maybe a llama or some kind of relative can pull heavier carts. I'm sure it's possible. Once they're down from the mountains the bigger, meatier llamas (as opposed to the smaller, nimble ones) are at a greater advantage, breed more, etc. In a thousand years or less from AD 1 there could be donkey- or even horse-like llamas.

Right? Is this possible?

Actually... what about llamas themselves? Give the Salish or Haida better seafaring skills, they could sail down to Peru.

Thinking about possible domesticates, my first thought was the moose (given there's a study out there now domesticating a moose population, can be used for leather/milk/beasts of burden, and are good in wet environments like the Pacific Northwest), but their range map on Wikipedia leaves out the Pacific Northwest, so I guess they're out the question (unless the map shows only current ranges and moose populations in the Northwest are just extinct.)

If not the moose, maybe the mountain goat? They're not as large, but their Wikipedia page tells me they have a herd hierarchy that should make them a potential domesticate. It also looks like pre-Colombian Pacific Northwest people used to gather the wool they shed in the spring to weave with. Maybe some tribe gets the idea to pen a herd of their own goats for more constant access to meat/wool/possibly milk and domesticates them over the generations?

Bighorn sheep are larger but apparently more docile than the mountain goat, but don't have the same one dominant ram in the herd structure that made wild goats in Europe easy to domesticate, so I'm not sure how those would turn out. No clue on if the mule deer is a potential domesticate, and I'm not sure how their horsepower would compare to a mountain goat's or bighorn sheep.

EDIT: Considering the hundreds of miles of desert and jungle between Peru and the Pacific Northwest, I think llamas and alpacas are out the question. Even if the one side had a stronger sailing tradition, you still have to transport the llamas/alpacas hundreds of miles to an environment completely different from the one they're adapted to.

Right now, I'm leaning towards importing llamas from Peru. The seafaring might be the result of writing accelerating Northwest maritime tech.

EDIT: It would be over the sea, not the land. Very difficult, true. But the Haida raided Mexico with nothing more than canoes. Given sails, I think they could make a round trip to Peru.

Still, I suppose mountain goats might do. I still think writing is the key.

Writing would definitely be a big step in preserving/passing on ideas. Maybe you can look and see if OTL any Pacific Northwest peoples had a set of symbols that could develop into a crude form of writing under the right conditions? Or, if there's no pre-existing template to base a writing system on, maybe they could come into contact with a culture that did have a writing system (like the Aztec) earlier than they did IOTL that pushes them to develop their own.

Meshakhad said:

Still, I suppose mountain goats might do. I still think writing is the key.

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Hmm, not as pack animals. I mean, I guess they could carry forty pounds or so, but that's nothing compared to what a horse or ox could pull on a cart, and with so much less effort per unit of useful stuff transported.

Moose, so far as I know, don't do so well over mountains; on plains and rolling hills they're fine, but their bodies aren't made for steep slopes and rocky paths.

Romana said:

Writing would definitely be a big step in preserving/passing on ideas. Maybe you can look and see if OTL any Pacific Northwest peoples had a set of symbols that could develop into a crude form of writing under the right conditions? Or, if there's no pre-existing template to base a writing system on, maybe they could come into contact with a culture that did have a writing system (like the Aztec) earlier than they did IOTL that pushes them to develop their own.

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I'm leaning towards making the independent invention of writing our POD. Here's how it might go:

At the start of our timeline (date TBD), the Salish develop a system of written symbols to record important information. Wood serves as their primary writing material. Quick notes are made by painting onto the wood, and permanent records by carving into the wood itself. Commonly, they will cut down a tree and slice it into thin discs. Later, they turn to birch bark. which will probably be their dominant writing material until the invention of paper (which may or may not happen independently). This technology spreads among the other Northwest cultures, and possibly down to California.

Some time later, Haida traders develop a written alphabet. It seems to me that traders would be more likely than others to need a way of writing down any sounds. Initially, they use the sounds to record the names of those they trade with, who would often speak a separate language entirely.

As the Haida developed their trading network, they hit upon the idea of encouraging the growth of valuable plants (mostly medicinals) so as to increase their own supply. This is the beginnings of farming in the Pacific Northwest. Once they develop sailing, they might import potatoes from Peru (maize doesn't grow so well up here). This is what produces a population boom, ultimately leading to the first nation-states in the Northwest.

The question is, what kind of timeframe are we looking at? The earlier the POD, the more time the Northwest civilization has to develop. However, arbitrarily giving them an early POD seems like cheating. It also gives more time for their ideas to spread, meaning I'll have to calculate their impact on other natives, especially the Californians. I do have a few ideas there, especially given the possible origins of a certain bunch of heart-rippers...

I also have no idea where and how metalworking would begin. Part of my problem is the abundant resources of the Northwest, which provide little incentive to innovate.

One other thing I've thought of is that if we have a fairly early invention of sailing by the Haida, and they are able to reach Peru, what happens when they go the other way? I see no reason why they couldn't follow the Pacific coast up to Alaska, then cross the Bering Straits to Kamchatka, down to the Kurils... and then on to Hokkaido and Honshu. If so, there might be pre-Columbian contact with Japan initiated by the Haida. If this happens early enough, it might be an answer to the metalworking problem. Certainly the idea of the Northwest leapfrogging the Bronze Age would save a lot of time. Of course, if that happens it WILL bite them in the ass with regards to casting cannons.

And yes, if they end up importing metalworking from Japan, they WILL have katanas or something similar.

The problem is, as you said, the abundance of resources in the area. Sailing so far is ridiculous when they can't even be bothered to invent metalworking. That said, are there any deposits of copper, tin, or iron nearby? If not, they'll have a hard time working metal no matter what.

Also, the Sumerians invented writing 5,000 years before AD 1, so I wouldn't shy away from having a POD so early. Speaking in international terms, the Native Americans were severely delayed where writing was concerned; if it was a coincidence that they didn't develop writing, instead of there actually being something holding them back (I'm not expert; I don't presume to know), I think it'd be fine for them to invent writing so early.

My justification for sailing is that OTL, the Haida reached Mexico. Without sails.

Yes I have thought on this.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=202767

Malta said:

Yes I have thought on this.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=202767

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Interesting. My criticism is that the premise is too similar to LORAG (which I will admit as an inspiration).

Meshakhad said:

Interesting. My criticism is that the premise is too similar to LORAG (which I will admit as an inspiration).

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It inspired this and a few other TLs if memory serves.

I believe Lands of Ice and Mice was inspired by Lands of Red and Gold too, but I find both to be excellent timelines that went in their own directions aside from similar PODs involving a starter crop(s).

Looking at the history of writing in the Americas, the oldest script found was a stone slab in Veracruz only about 3000 years old. The Maya script, one of the best developed pre-Columbian writing systems, dates back to about 3rd century BC. Even if you go with a Maya-like POD for writing, you have at least around 1800 years to work with before Columbus is even in the picture, plus however long it takes for Europeans to actually reach the Pacific Northwest.

In my opinion if you can find a conceivable way for the Pacific Northwest cultures to acquire some crops and domestic animals before the area attracts attention from outside colonizers,and encourage some larger polities to form, you could at least have them hold a much larger legacy over the region, if not at least a more autonomous status in whatever empire claims their lands. The area wasn't really explored and colonized with any depth until the later part of the 18th century, so you might not necessarily need a way back PoD, but it does help greatly if you want to have the cultures retain independence. Or somehow have a further delay of colonizers reaching this region.

In my TLs I was going to play with the idea of them developing a more complex society, and the PoDs are after Colombus got lost. Though the PoDs in question do significantly delay and alter colonialism's course. But I haven't reached the point in either of my TLs where I get into their development so I have no live examples of how. So LoRG and Lands of Ice and Mice are great examples, and there's also another TL that tried this back in the day called "Lands of Salmon and Totems" I think.