AHC: Russia vs Spain War
- Thread starter Ellie
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MarshalBraginsky
Banned
True, but it's better accomplished in the 1780s. Ivangorod Prosperous actually covers this kind of war, and I can now explain the cultural effects of a Russian occupied Philippines.
The only way a Spanish vs Russia war will happen is if Spain retains its great power status by the 19th Century rather than decaying on that century.
A Spain at par with british or french technology is another way for a Russia vs Spain matchup, which means industrialization for Spain after the Napoleonic war.
A Spain at par with british or french technology is another way for a Russia vs Spain matchup, which means industrialization for Spain after the Napoleonic war.
It's not as directly as the question might want but what about the Crimean War? Even Sardinia got involved in that. Surely having Spain pile on isn't too far fetched?
Actually, that's a good idea, and possibly an idea for brainstorming timeline PoD's
How about the War of Austrian Succession?
In 1742, the new Viceroy of New Spain, Pedro Cebrián, arrives in Mexico City. He is aware that the Russian Empire is at war with Spain's ally, France. Furthermore, during tenure as ambassador in Vienna, he had heard rumors about Russian fur traders being active in the New World, though not all those rumors agreed that there were settlements there. Hoping to find favor with this master, Philip V, the Viceroy commissions two galleons to sail from Acapulco to discover these settlements, and harry them if they are found.
The leader of the expedition is initially quite skeptical. However, diligent work by the viceregal archivist turns up some charts from Juan de Fuca's 1592 expedition. Though the 16th century explorer was a bit hazy about the distance, this convinces Cebrián that it is possible to venture so far north. The leader of the expedition reluctantly agrees.
The expedition leaves Acapulco in February, 1743, and heads north, staying within sight of land. However, before the ship manages to reach the straight that Juan described in his map, the ships are taken by the Alaska Current, and borne west, away from land, and, by the crews' reckoning, beyond all hope. After nearly two months in the open ocean, in August 1743, the crew spies land.
Not having the slightest idea where they are, the captain agrees to call off the expedition, and begins cautiously sailing south. As luck would have it, a few days later, the lookouts spy a settlement. Amazingly, the flag over the settlement is the blue, white and red tricolor of the Empress of Russia!
Taking this to to be a sign from God, the crew disembarks, and enters the small village under arms. There are fewer than 100 souls present at Petropavlovsk, and none are eager to fight, not even being aware of the war going on so far to the West.
The settlement surrenders, and the expedition members help themselves to every bit of fur and salmon they can find. By consulting the fur traders' crude maps, they determine their approximate location, and decide that it would be far safer to sail for the Philippines than attempt to repeat their journey.
By the time news reaches the St. Petersburg, it is 1745. Russia has exited the war, but the court is nonetheless annoyed. Russia re-enters the war in 1748, in time for its troops to take place in a few desultory engagements before the peace treaty is signed. The peace treaty contains a clause ending the state of war between the King of Spain and the Empress of Russia.
Philip V learns of "his" expedition through his intelligence network in late 1745. His letter asking for an explanation from his Viceroy in New Spain is the first news that Pedro Cebrián has heard of his expedition in two years. The galleons that set forth from Acapulco will never be heard from again, though two centuries later scholars will link it to rumors of several "black ships" that were sighted off of Hokkaido in 1744.
In 1742, the new Viceroy of New Spain, Pedro Cebrián, arrives in Mexico City. He is aware that the Russian Empire is at war with Spain's ally, France. Furthermore, during tenure as ambassador in Vienna, he had heard rumors about Russian fur traders being active in the New World, though not all those rumors agreed that there were settlements there. Hoping to find favor with this master, Philip V, the Viceroy commissions two galleons to sail from Acapulco to discover these settlements, and harry them if they are found.
The leader of the expedition is initially quite skeptical. However, diligent work by the viceregal archivist turns up some charts from Juan de Fuca's 1592 expedition. Though the 16th century explorer was a bit hazy about the distance, this convinces Cebrián that it is possible to venture so far north. The leader of the expedition reluctantly agrees.
The expedition leaves Acapulco in February, 1743, and heads north, staying within sight of land. However, before the ship manages to reach the straight that Juan described in his map, the ships are taken by the Alaska Current, and borne west, away from land, and, by the crews' reckoning, beyond all hope. After nearly two months in the open ocean, in August 1743, the crew spies land.
Not having the slightest idea where they are, the captain agrees to call off the expedition, and begins cautiously sailing south. As luck would have it, a few days later, the lookouts spy a settlement. Amazingly, the flag over the settlement is the blue, white and red tricolor of the Empress of Russia!
Taking this to to be a sign from God, the crew disembarks, and enters the small village under arms. There are fewer than 100 souls present at Petropavlovsk, and none are eager to fight, not even being aware of the war going on so far to the West.
The settlement surrenders, and the expedition members help themselves to every bit of fur and salmon they can find. By consulting the fur traders' crude maps, they determine their approximate location, and decide that it would be far safer to sail for the Philippines than attempt to repeat their journey.
By the time news reaches the St. Petersburg, it is 1745. Russia has exited the war, but the court is nonetheless annoyed. Russia re-enters the war in 1748, in time for its troops to take place in a few desultory engagements before the peace treaty is signed. The peace treaty contains a clause ending the state of war between the King of Spain and the Empress of Russia.
Philip V learns of "his" expedition through his intelligence network in late 1745. His letter asking for an explanation from his Viceroy in New Spain is the first news that Pedro Cebrián has heard of his expedition in two years. The galleons that set forth from Acapulco will never be heard from again, though two centuries later scholars will link it to rumors of several "black ships" that were sighted off of Hokkaido in 1744.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
So a Spanish occupation of the Kamchatka Peninsula? Though the occupation wouldn't last long due to logistics. Also, a Russo-Spanish War in North America might also be possible, if the Russians were serious about expanding their Alaskan colony.
During the War of the Pyrenees, Spain retains Rousillon and France is defeated. Following this in the First Coalition France is defeated and the Bourbons are restored. With this the Spanish colonies don't feel as favorable towards rebellion. Now that Spain retains its Great Power status its pretty easy. Spain protects OE in the Crimean War.
Wouldn't be too hard. Some 'damn thing in California' could well escalate into something bigger between the two countries.
Competing claims in California (Fort Ross in Sonoma County vs. the Viceroyalty of New Spain) leading to disputes leading to skirmishes leading to low-level war. Maybe Spain raids a few Russian settlements in Alaska and Siberia and this leads to some retaliation by the Russian fleet in the Philippines, the Pacific islands or even Spain itself.
It's not going to be a massive war but hey, you didn't say that was necessary.
Competing claims in California (Fort Ross in Sonoma County vs. the Viceroyalty of New Spain) leading to disputes leading to skirmishes leading to low-level war. Maybe Spain raids a few Russian settlements in Alaska and Siberia and this leads to some retaliation by the Russian fleet in the Philippines, the Pacific islands or even Spain itself.
It's not going to be a massive war but hey, you didn't say that was necessary.
Depends when this damn thing in California happens (before or after Mexico, before or after Napoleon).
In 1770 Russia has little in the way of enforcing the Pacific claims. By 1815 or so the situation is completely reversed and Russians have termporary naval dominance (provided Britain isn't too strongly against the idea and allows Russia passage).
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
The Russians definitely need a stronger fleet that could be on par with the Spanish fleet for sure.
? The Russians have a good enough fleet to challenge Spain in the Baltic since the Archipelago Expedition at the very least. What they don't have in a tradition of sending warships around the world, but by 1815 they certainly do and Spain is temporarily really weak following the Napoleonic wars while Russia is temporarily #2 in the world.
Russia is always going to have a problem with bases though, regardless of how many hulls they have afloat. That's difficult to change.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
That is exactly true. The only PoD that I can think of that allows Russia to have a stronger naval tradition would be sometime in the 17th century when they develop a good Arctic sailing technique.
1803 Russian Navy:
Baltic Sea : 27 ships of the line, 26 frigates
Black Sea : 21 ships of the line, 8 frigates
1809, the Ships of the Line:
Great Britain: 113
Spain: 45
France: 45
Russia: 34
Denmark: 21
The 1809 numbers, The Russian fleet might be lower by 1815; since Anglo-Russo war was still happening while Trafalgar already passed. You can actually see Russians losing Ships of the Line by 1809 from 48 in 1803 and 60 in 1798.
Interestingly though, the French had their pre-Trafalgar navy strength by 1813.
In 1809 a bunch of Russian ships are still interned by Britain and Russia had a large building program that delivered a bunch of new ships in 1809-1813 period (as well as selling and breaking up some) so that's why 1815 seemed like a good time. I admit I may be wrong, of course, but certainly in 1815 Russia has a lot more experience in sending warships to the Pacific compared to 1770 even if the 1770 navy was weightier.
Ironically many ships of that generation (completed 1809-1813) ended up being sold to Spain in 1818 and onwards.
Russia and Spain aren't natural rivals
This is a bit early, though a similar story would be possible 40-50 years latter, when Spain sent several expeditions to the northwest pacific because the rumors about russian presence there. I think the most plaussible POD is a version of the Nootka Crisis but between Spain and Russia instead Britain. In 1788 a spanish expedition made the first contact with the russians in the Americas, and they learned from them the russian intention to take possesion of the Nootka Sound the next year. Since Spain claimed the area (under the provisions of the Inter-Caetera bull) the vicerroy of New Spain ordered a preemptive take-over over the Nootka Sound that latter sparked the OTL crisis in 1789, because they fund the british there. So, what if there is not british pressence and the russians arrive the next year to find hostile spaniards? Or if the spanish find a russian ship instead a british one and proceed to confiscate it?
Anyway, wiki's list and summary of spanish expeditions in the Pacific Northwest can be useful as a source of potential POD's:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanis...c_Northwest#1790_Spanish_base_in_Nootka_Sound