DBWI: The Manchus ruling all over China

ramones1986

ramones1986

The Manchus are an ethno-linguistic group living in the Manchurian Autonomous Province[1] in China. They were known in the past for their banner system for their armies, but their clothing was more well-known (qipao in Northern Chinese[2]) as the inspiration for designers in both Shanghai and Tianjin in the 1920s (mid-1920s to be exact) to create a sexier version of the said dress to symbolize the emancipation of the Chinese women in general, as exemplified by their female movie stars.

We know about the wars between them and the troops of Shun Dynasty, especially the latter's recapture of Liaoning, and the resolution to the conflict (Treaty of Shenyang in 1658), which the Manchus can continue their kingdom under the protection of the Shun emperors themselves, in exchange of helping the expansion of the empire, crushing the remaining Ming strongholds. It lasted until the early 19th century, when the nobles agreed to formally become a part of China.

I'm still wondering if this ethnic group actually ruled whole China as a new dynasty? What would be its effect on the Chinese government, and the society as a whole, especially the way they dress? Will they be Sinicized, just like the other northern ethno-linguistic groups in the past?

By the way, the POD should be set in the 1640s.


OOC Notes:
[1] Heilongjiang and Jilin provinces.
[2] Mandarin Chinese.
 
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Seleucus

Utterly ASB. Maybe the Manchus could conquer part of China, if a few Ming generals had gone insane and joined them, but conquering the whole thing? That's the equivalent of the Manchus conquering Russia in the 1640s (after all, they bordered Russia just as much as China!)
 

Lalli

I doubt strongly that Manchus can conquer whole China and if they can, I don't believe that they can rule China very long. Probably Manchus overthrown on early 18th century and there is new Chinese dynasty. But what then, it is hard to say.
 

Carl Schwamberger

After the experience of the Mongols, which had become a seemingly permanent part of the Chinese thinking, it is difficult to see any foreign group dominating the modern Chen peoples. I'd judge it too easy for either the Shaun or a resurgent Ming to rally 'Chinese' to resistance. Maybe Manchu invaders could control part or all of the northern provinces for some time, but I cant see them creating a 'Manchu' dynasty over the Middle Kingdom.
 
ramones1986

ramones1986

kasumigenx said:
Qipao was prefered because Hanfu/Kimono became considered too Japanese.
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I think that's not the case; well-know couture designers in both Shanghai and Tianjin were inspired by the traditional dress of the Manchu women through photographs, make it more comfortable to wear, and add the influence of the Chinese movie industry, voila! Nevertheless, the designers still esteemed Hanfu.

OOC: Qipao and queue hairstyle for men was only introduced in the Qing era, starting in the late 1640s, by the way. Relatively modern for the Han, for short.
 
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SPJ

I'd like to know how a Manchu government would have effected sexual relations and gender roles in Chinese society since I understand that the Manchus had a rather sexually oppressive culture. I wonder how female liberating ideas, and tales such as that of Hua Mulan would have survived in such a dynasty. I hardly think we could have seen such a thing as a ruling empress in a Manchu dynasty.

OOC:
IRONY!!! :p
aHR0cCUzQSUyRiUyRjEuYnAuYmxvZ3Nwb3QuY29tJTJGLURNNjMwNmZ4WnNnJTJGVXB6QzZkNGVDQUklMkZBQUFBQUFBQTEwNCUyRjRrMmtEc2ZJc2FnJTJGczE2MDAlMkZUaGVfQ2ktWGlfSW1wZXJpYWxfRG93YWdlcl9FbXByZXNzXyUyODUlMjkuSlBH
 

ChazMo

OOC: I've always considered this one of the great WTF slices of history. Had it not actually happened, it's just the sort of thing that would get torn to shreds on this forum.
 

democracy101

Seleucus said:
Utterly ASB. Maybe the Manchus could conquer part of China, if a few Ming generals had gone insane and joined them, but conquering the whole thing? That's the equivalent of the Manchus conquering Russia in the 1640s (after all, they bordered Russia just as much as China!)
Click to expand...

This isn't a very good analogy. If the Manchus had targeted Russia, it would first have to pass through a large expanse of tundra across Siberia, which has been and still is sparsely populated due to its inhospitable climate. On the other hand, most of China would have been much more worthwhile to the Manchus due to its population and resources.

Carl Schwamberger said:
After the experience of the Mongols, which had become a seemingly permanent part of the Chinese thinking, it is difficult to see any foreign group dominating the modern Chen peoples. I'd judge it too easy for either the Shaun or a resurgent Ming to rally 'Chinese' to resistance. Maybe Manchu invaders could control part or all of the northern provinces for some time, but I cant see them creating a 'Manchu' dynasty over the Middle Kingdom.
Click to expand...

The Northern Wei had ruled North China for about a century and was governed by the Xianbei, not to mention that the Sui and Tang were also both founded by sinicized individuals of partial Xianbei descent, which didn't prevent the Jurchen Jin from attempting to conquer the Song, nor the Mongols (Yuan) from eventually conquering both. As a result, if China is overwhelmed by social/political turmoil by the early 17th century or so, which would mirror past occurrences, the Manchus could probably take advantage of the chaos to invade, although the ethnic group would need to politically consolidate itself for at least several decades beforehand in order to complete a successful conquest.

ChazMo said:
OOC: I've always considered this one of the great WTF slices of history. Had it not actually happened, it's just the sort of thing that would get torn to shreds on this forum.
Click to expand...

Ultimate Paragon said:
OOC: Sometimes, a scenario that just screams of ASB actually happened.
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OOC: Not really. It's one of those things that seems "ASB" at first glance, but is quite reasonable when the specific details are collectively taken into consideration.

The Ming had spent a significant amount of resources confronting the Northern Yuan for decades, then decided to rebuild the Great Wall (the one in existence today) as an alternative measure. The Imjin War then further depleted resources in order to aid Korea against the Japanese invasion, and both conflicts eventually distracted the Ming from focusing on stabilizing the northeast frontier. These events allowed Nurhaci to consolidate influence by unifying the tribes in the region, along with establishing marriage alliances with the Mongols, and it's worth mentioning that it took 26 years for the Manchus just to overrun the Great Wall, and 65 years to completely subdue China, due to the Shun, Southern Ming, and the Revolt of the Three Feudatories, along with pockets of resistance throughout the country. The Ming was also unstable by the early 17th century due to climate issues, as the Little Ice Age took its toll on farmers, and encouraged far-flung regions to stage uprisings due to widespread discontentment, which was nothing new.

It's also important to note that the Qing continued to retain its direct hold on China for several centuries partly because most of the aristocracy had become assimilated by the mid-18th century, due to various cultural and political reasons, not to mention that various uprisings did occur throughout the 19th century, most notably the Taiping Rebellion.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the Manchus also invaded Joseon in 1627 and 1636-7 by taking advantage of an uprising in 1624 by Yi Gwal, forcing Korea to shift its allegiance. These events effectively prevented a concrete Ming-Joseon alliance against the Manchus, which had previously constrained the latter (as the Jurchen) for over two centuries.
 
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