Space Exploration Initiative Succeeds?

On July 20th 1989, President George HW Bush's attempt at a new path for NASA's future. The path laid out would involve the construction of Space Station Freeom in the 1990s, the construction of a permanent Lunar Outpost in the 2000s followed by Manned Mars missions by 2019.

However the plan died in Congress,
The 30-year plan had a price tag of nearly $400 billion, which also included robotic probes for lunar and Mars missions. Approximately half the cost was for the Mars mission ($172.9 billion) and assorted scientific probes ($13.85 billion), and the remainder for a lunar base ($209.46 billion).
Credit to:http://www.thespacereview.com/article/102/2


The question is this, what possible POD/TL could allow something like the SEI to work in 1989. And what would the coarse of a successful SEI take?

Robert Zubrin's Lunar/Mars Direct?
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/marirect.htm
First Lunar Outpost?
http://www.nss.org/settlement/moon/FLO.html
Design Reference Mission 3.0?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Design_Reference_Mission_3.0
Athena:piloted Mars Flyby/Gia Sheild Piloted NEO rendezvous
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/athena.htm

Any one of the missions from the cheapest (Athena/Giasheild at $2.5 Billion) to the most expensive (NASA DRM 3.0 at $55 billion for three missions) would be significantly shorter and faster (first flight in 5-10 years).
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
The SEI was the dumbest space exploration program ever proposed, since it should have been obvious to a first grader that Congress would never approve the money in a zillion years. For it to succeed, it must be something more along the lines of Zubrin's proposal, so have someone come up with something like it earlier.
 
I agree completly. However, Zubrin's Mars/Lunar Direct plan was proposed to NASA as early as 1990 in a response to the $400 Billion 90 day report monstrosity.

Obviously if it was just a matter of money NASA would have happily accepted Mars/Lunar Direct's $20 billion (1990 dollars) over 10 years plan. It was more sustainable, more than a flag and footprints exercise and logically led to permanent outposts on the Moon and Mars early. First flight in 9 years! If NASA manegment accepted it as their program and proposed it to congress it would definetly be within what congress would allow.

The question is this, why didn't NASA manegment accept this new plan givin their failure getting the 90 Day Report funded? If Zubrin or somebody else came up with Mars Direct in 1988 or earlier how would that change anything? Mars Direct was just in time to save the whole program if it was accepted. Why didn't they?
 
Having President Bush get a second term would definetly help SEI's chances. But the issue wasn't funding and it wasn't Clinton sabotage!

By the time Clinton became President in 1993 SEI was already dead on arrival and had largely been abolished already. Given that the Moon/Mars Direct plan was proposed in 1989 to NASA manegment the plan (or something similer) should have been accepted proposed to congress and development started on vehicles. They had four years to design, debate and pick architectures. By the time 1993 rolled around they should have been developing the hardware already!

I have concluded that NASA manegment was unwilling to accept the Moon/Mars Initiative. If they had, then they could have proposed a program within a budget congress would accept. Then by the time Clinton comes around NASA would be in the position of saying

"We have already begun hardware development, if you continue our funding at flat levels we could have the first outposts on the Moon and Mars by the end of your second term (1999). What do you say?"

I think that would find alot more support than NASA sticking with a $500 billion 30 year wishlist. Essentially NASA sabotaged itself. Unlike Kennedy and Johnson (who really fought for the Apollo program) Bush didn't fight for the program atall. It wasn't a priority. How do we get NASA manegment to accept something like this. It seems deeply ingrained and not suseptible to a simple POD.

BTW: If Bush getting relected gets Humans on the Moon and Mars (which I doubt), this Democratic Socialist is voting Republican!:D:p
 
It wasn't up to Bush. It was up to Congress. And Congress had already made certain that SEI was as dead as a doornail.

But NASA leadership could have proposed a leener Mars/Lunar Direct type program that congress would have accepted. $2 billion/year over ten years, with the first Mars/Lunar Outpost within 10 years (about two 4 year terms).

We didn't they accept the $20 billion/10 year plan over the $500 billion/30 year plan? The former could have survived congress, the latter couldn't.
 
President Bush senior SEI was a monster program

Space Station Freedom as Space dock in 1990s, Manned Lunar base in 2000s and Manned Mars flights in 2010s
Shuttle, Shuttle-C and Shuttle Heavy cargo Lauch rocket.
actually it new edition of the 1969 Space Task Group plan "Integrated Manned Space Flight Program"

It's Prise Tag of 500 Billion Dollar, was a shock for US House of Representatives.
actually it had to be spend over next 30 years, they had to increase tha NASA FY budget for 16 Billion Dollar !

SEI was missing a "adversary" to justified it, the Cold War was at his end, Soviet Union and China had other problems

Lack of Support to Bush Plans
ironically by NASA administaror Richard Truly, who was only interested on NASA "business as usual" and not support SEI in public
President Bush senior revenge on that after SEI died, he fired Truly and make Daniel Goldin the new NASA administrator...
 
Last edited:
I agree, but why didn't NASA propose something better?!?!?! Why did Bush accept NASA doing this?!?!?! If NASA had proposed something like this to Kennedy (granted during the space-race) they would force NASA to come up with something "Faster, Cheaper..."

If NASA "truly" wanted to get a Moon/Mars Initiative to get through and save SEI, they could have. Mars Direct was capable of setting up Mars and Lunar Outposts at an eighth the cost and a third the time to launch!

NASA leadership wasn't doing anything to save it. What I'm hearing is, that means Truly.

What to do? Somebody else is NASA administrator? If so, who?
 
But NASA leadership could have proposed a leener Mars/Lunar Direct type program that congress would have accepted. $2 billion/year over ten years, with the first Mars/Lunar Outpost within 10 years (about two 4 year terms).

We didn't they accept the $20 billion/10 year plan over the $500 billion/30 year plan? The former could have survived congress, the latter couldn't.
Because the $500 billion plan was their estimate on the costs to achieve the direction they were given by the President in a major policy address to the nation. They were not presented a chance to give their own, more minimal plan in response, they were told to generate a number to meet the President's goals. They proceeded with this on an assumption that the President was willing to support the funding necessary to achieve the goals he'd called for. This initial report was greeted as Dead on Arrival everywhere it hit, and the President was rather busy with things like the breakup of Russia, so during the critical time when the report was being "spun" to Congress, the main word on the block was that the entire initiative was too costly and poorly thought out. By the time NASA had finally recieved direct instructions from the President to the tune that their initial plan was too ambitious, it had already "poisonned the well" on the Hill, and any Mars or lunar return plan was viewed as likely just a stealth inlet for trying to weasel back into the massive $400 billion boondoggle. Bush made several speeches trying to drum up support, but then they ran into HST's optical issues and some serious Shuttle problems that meant even a Presidential whirlwind wasn't enough to do much more than stem the bleeding. Instead, Congress put out appropriations bills that increased NASA's budget--but stripped out every budget line relating to SEI with surgical precision, instead putting in money for Shuttle and station. Bush was unwilling to risk spending further political capital on what was clearly a dead end, and backed off on SEI, scrapping any big plans.

So the original presidential directives were unclear, and gave NASA the impression of far more support than they could actually expect. By the time NASA was informed of this, the 90-day study was already out into the wild, and rapidly killing Congressional interest in any long-term BEO plans, and presidential attempts to save it were ineffective, then further stymied by some major negative press for NASA's big-ticket programs--Shuttle and Hubble. NASA wouldn't have proposed something as limited as Mars Direct originally in the 90-day study given what the President told them he wanted, and after that hit Congress like a bag of dead rats, it was too late for something "less expensive" to be salvaged, and the President bailed.
 
Assuming that is correct, then the POD would require a more minimalist goal made by President Bush on July 20th 1989. In other words he would have to propose an initiative that didn't give NASA the false impression that SEI was going to be the next "Intergrated Program Plan or Battlestar Galactica". Hence rather than Space Station Freedom for the 1990s and a vague Moon around 2010, Mars around 2020. He makes a clear program rather like.

"Before this millenium and indeed this century is over, we will see humanity's first outposts on the Moon and indeed Mars. Small, temporary, but foreshadowing greater adventures to come and more discoveries to be made."

Say what you will about my speech writting!:p But would a clear short term minimalist presidential goal have saved the program? I think we all agree that SEI was too much and over too long a timeframe. If I follow E's logic, having the program be minimalist from the start might have saved us the trainwreck that was the 90 day report. Something as limited as Mars Direct would have been proposed. If Bush had scaled back goals from the begining then something akin to First Lunar Outpost or NASA DRM 3.0 or Mars direct would be proposed initially (instead of a Science Fiction scenerio of Space Docks/Assembly Construction yard+Reusable Transfer vehicles+30 year timescale). Make his goals clearly be

THIS!!!!
flo_hab1.jpg

AND NOT THIS!!!!
LunarColonyRawlings650.jpg
 
Well S.E.I. as it was had no hope of success whatsoever. It's $500bn Pricetag, a Congress that had no desire to fund such a thing, a President that had too many other issues on his plate to worry about it, and a NASA Head that simply didn't care. In fact, from what I hear, Truly's attitude was "Give us STS and the Station. The rest, do what you want."

But the Manned Lunar and Mars Missions within the 90-Day Report had an even bigger flaw that looms over all the other problems. They didn't actually do all that much. I'll focus on the Mars aspect since I know a lot more about that.

After travelling for either 180 or 430 days - depending on which part of the interplanetary travel the Venus Flyby occurred - Orbital Mechanics would permit about 30 days in Mars Orbit and based on their plans at the time, maybe 14 days on the Martian Surface. And that's only if the weather would permit a landing at all! In other words, there was a very real risk of effective Mission Failure.

That was the problem with Mars Missions of that time. They were using so-called Opposition-Class Missions that required them to spend the vast bulk (~95%) of their time travelling between the planets which gave them very little time to do real work at Mars. Some would call it a Zero-Capability Mission, which could have been another factor to seal S.E.I's fate.

AFAIK, it wasn't until Zubrin's Mars Direct that Conjunction-Class Missions returned to the forefront. And until then, the chances of any Mars Mission are slim to me.

To save S.E.I., you really need to get NASA to decide that Man on Mars is not possible - although a series of unmanned probes and technology demonstrators should still be very probable - and instead focus BEO Manned Missions on the Moon, and along the lines of FLO or LUNOX to make sure they have a fighting chance of getting it.
 
Thank's Micheal Van, Chapter 7 explains the whole mess very cleary and in a very detailed manner. And thank's to Archibald in extension for finding the link.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
If NASA "truly" wanted to get a Moon/Mars Initiative to get through and save SEI, they could have. Mars Direct was capable of setting up Mars and Lunar Outposts at an eighth the cost and a third the time to launch!

You're ignoring political realities. It's not up to NASA. It's up to Congress.

The average Congressman won't approve anything involving the expenditure of money unless some of that money goes to his or her district. The problem with SEI is that, while it was big enough for pieces of the contract pie to go around pretty much everywhere, it was so big that it would have broken the budget. Mars Direct might have been affordable, but it would have not provided enough contract opportunities to go around the congressional table, so most congressmen would oppose it.
 

Garrison

Donor
I agree, but why didn't NASA propose something better?!?!?! Why did Bush accept NASA doing this?!?!?! If NASA had proposed something like this to Kennedy (granted during the space-race) they would force NASA to come up with something "Faster, Cheaper..."

Sorry but that's just not so. Apollo cost somewhere between $100-170 Billion in current day dollars and NASA's budget peaked at 4% of the Federal budget compared with about 0.5% today. That was for the relatively simpler task of going to the moon. The complexity of a Mars mission is an order of magnitude higher.

Frankly I doubt Bush was any more serious about his space plans than Reagan before him or Clinton after; it was a nice political sound bite he knew he would never have to deliver on.
 
I think the biggest obstacle for anything like this to work would be the so-called R&D demand by the aerospace industry. Look how much was wasted on the International Space Station. There shouldn't have needed much spent on "research". Well, to prevent myself from going off on a long rant, the fleecing needs to stop so that the budget could be met.

It would be best to pick one objective and stick with it instead of writing a wish list. I would have focused on the moon. Yes, Mars has more of the resources required to support life, but the moon is right there! I saw it this morning on my way to work. Whatever research done on the ISS (that's not duplicating what the Russian learned on Mir decades ago) could be done on a much smaller platform.

The first trip to the moon might be one of the few government ran programs in living memory that actually earned a profit. The personal and corporate income taxes from software and microcomputer companies that came out of that technological revolution paid for the whole program at least once over. A moon lab might produce something similar. Technology used in recycling air and water could be used in all major cities to help reduce pollution (base case scenario there).
 
I think the biggest obstacle for anything like this to work would be the so-called R&D demand by the aerospace industry. Look how much was wasted on the International Space Station. There shouldn't have needed much spent on "research". Well, to prevent myself from going off on a long rant, the fleecing needs to stop so that the budget could be met.

Freedom was in R&D a disaster, some nicknamed it FreeDOOM
even before Reagan say yes to space station, NASA had conduct ZILLION studies for that since 1970s

then with Reagan GO, thinks went worst, instead to take the best proposal from those Study
NASA administration decide to start all over again !
so they came up with Power Tower, LRC Station, Dual Keel Space Station, Space Station 1984 and really bizarre Concepts
Dual Keel Space Station make it and became "Freedom" in 1985
but here it start get wild, instead to freeze the design, the made study after study how to build Freedom and how to launch it.
and to make things worst Capitol Hill start to play along what let to the "Revised Baseline Configuration"
then Bush top that with SEI, "Freedom" became a Space Dock for Moon and Mars Mission
with dead of SEI, Freedom became Fred then Alpha and Russian start to play along
until here NASA had spend 10 years of Study Space station Freedom and spend billions on studies

Now with that in mind, they could to prevent that with ISS ?
Noooo, it start al over again...


so what was the problem ?
no clear Leadership in NASA, either in Administration in Washington D.C. or JSC or in Freedom program management.
the Program had a goal but not clear specification how to reach them and no one there to say: "Stop we freeze the design from here, we go build the Hardware"
 
I think the biggest obstacle for anything like this to work would be the so-called R&D demand by the aerospace industry. Look how much was wasted on the International Space Station. There shouldn't have needed much spent on "research". Well, to prevent myself from going off on a long rant, the fleecing needs to stop so that the budget could be met.

It would be best to pick one objective and stick with it instead of writing a wish list. I would have focused on the moon. Yes, Mars has more of the resources required to support life, but the moon is right there! I saw it this morning on my way to work. Whatever research done on the ISS (that's not duplicating what the Russian learned on Mir decades ago) could be done on a much smaller platform.

The first trip to the moon might be one of the few government ran programs in living memory that actually earned a profit. The personal and corporate income taxes from software and microcomputer companies that came out of that technological revolution paid for the whole program at least once over. A moon lab might produce something similar. Technology used in recycling air and water could be used in all major cities to help reduce pollution (base case scenario there).


The thing to remember in arguing an economic basis for support for a space program is, the rate of profit needs to be high. Space enterprise as such is quite risky. And investors are not generally after achieving the average rate of profit--they are attracted by extra-high rates, and that is before factoring in risk.

Now the topic here is what sort of government-funded space project could the Bush administration plausibly have sold Congress in the late 1980s, one that would sustain interest in keeping up the funding over a decade or so. The government is not expected to acquire the profit; Congressmen are not seeking to (directly!) pocket the revenues. They are acting on behalf of corporate lobbyists whose firms do expect that. They don't care whether those revenues derive from the sale of real goods and services they have produced, or are simply extorted from the taxpayer and paid over to them in fees for products that contribute nothing to the overall economy--they are looking at portfolio growth.

But if the space program, for instance, is merely such a revenue transfer machine, the taxpayers who are not investors in the chosen contractor firms will have reason to complain!

You argue that the money invested in NASA in the 1960s doubled itself in a decade by yielding valuable new technologies that did augment the US (and world) economy. Taking that at face value, and assuming the full doubled return of revenues had already made itself manifest in the US economy as a whole, that averages out to an annual rate of profit of 7.18 percent. Now I don't know a lot of details about the prevailing rate of profit for US industries in the 1960s but I suspect that is indeed a very high rate.

But of course the picture probably isn't that rosy; if it were I can't see how support for the space program could have failed. The more concentrated that benefit was, the more stupendous the profits for the handful of enterprises involved; they wouldn't let it go; whereas if you are talking abut benefits diffused through the entire economy, then grassroots support for the program should have been very broad. Claiming the money was doubled--are you perhaps talking not about the period 1961-'71 but the entire world economy to date? That's not a decade, that's more like half a century, and the rate of profit is just 1.4 percent, which is dismally low. And of course with the spinoff benefits you mention spread out over the entire competitive capitalist world, the US share is even lower.

Arguing from spinoffs is dubious anyway; any technology that happens to have been first developed to reach a NASA specification could obviously just as well have been developed instead to solve the problems they are actually applied to in the Terran economy; it seems strange to argue that only a space program could have yielded them. If that can be shown to be true, it is more of an insight into the peculiar nature either of capitalism or the human mind itself.

Given the ideology of George H. W. Bush and his career profile, and of his party, one would think that a Republican space program in the late 1980s would be especially concerned to show the way to sustained and growing private investment in space itself, for profit. To do that, the government would be interested in demonstrating that not only average but high rates of profit could be earned by enterprises that produce goods and services stemming, not from spinoffs but from space itself. Perhaps Bush might have deemed it appropriate for the US government to assume and underwrite the risks of space travel, and thus elevate merely mediocre potential profits into more attractive ones. The spinoff factor might be deemed to offset the necessary high tax revenues this would entail.

But absent a clear notion that permanent and expanding human presence in space could reasonably be expected to open up opportunities for private profitable enterprises yielding higher than average rates of return, any degree of investment in space at all seems to be a frivolous luxury to the people who own most of the wealth in the Western world. It might be justified by military necessity or ambition, or simply be an indulgence--but never one on a serious economic scale.

Vice versa--if there is a clear and solid case to be made for substantial and growing profits to be made in space enterprise, than programs as grandiose as half a trillion dollars and even more would be quite well justified--and would be supported tenaciously by both the small but wealthy corporate sector that hopes to double-dip (taking in profits both from servicing the government investment, and then later from ownership of the profitable space enterprises) and the general public at large, making it political gold.

I leave it up to others for now to debate whether these glittering economic prospects exist and our government and those of every other nation in the world have been too foolish to seize the opportunity, or whether space projects even at a tenth or less the cost NASA put forth in 1989 die in the conceptual phase because such opportunities either are extremely risky and speculative, or don't exist at all.
 
I would call doubling, very very conservative.

Cox discusses a study which indicates that the Apollo project, which was very expensive, had a $14 return on the investment. Every dollar spent on Apollo generated $14 in value (according to a 1975 study by Chase Econometrics).
http://physics.about.com/b/2010/06/05/brian-cox-returns-to-ted.htm

Further you need to consider that Apollo was a program that really only spanned from 1962-1969 the research/development/early flight period. After that it was merely burning throught it's already existing production run of Saturn Vs, Apollo CSMs, LMs, Saturn IBs, SV-IBs, Skylabs. The average spending on NASA from 1962-1969 was an average of $25 billion.

$25 billion today, would be just 0.6% of the federal budget.
 
Top