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Old January 14th, 2014, 11:03 PM
JosefStalin JosefStalin is offline
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WI: Me 262 mass produced

Could the ME 262 be mass produced in time for D-Day and if so what impact would it have on the attack?
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Old January 14th, 2014, 11:13 PM
Torqumada Torqumada is offline
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Old January 14th, 2014, 11:13 PM
The Red The Red is offline
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Though it depends on what counts as "mass produced" and what he Germans sacrifice to do this, the Allies likely still win the air war over France in time to land in 1944 with minimal harassment. The Me-262 really isn't all that superior to Allied models of the time, and even if the Allies were somehow resistant to butterlifes in not advancing their own jet development, it's certainly no match for their vast industrial supremacy.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 01:56 AM
The Kiat The Kiat is offline
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If they start buzzing around like crazy then the prohibition the British put on their own jets over occupied territory might just get lifted.

And the 262 wasn't exactly an engineering masterpiece. I think they had to replace the engines fairly regularly. Ten hours might be an exaggeration, but if you need more engines just to keep a single aircraft airborne then the obvious target for the 8th Air Force would be the jet engine plants.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 02:03 AM
Dathi THorfinnsson Dathi THorfinnsson is offline
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Hmmm... to mass produce the jets, they massively cut piston fighters. Then with the short legs and unreliability, especially the engines, mean the WAliies get to send 10 fighters at every jet, and the loong paved runways the jets require will be the target of every heavy bomber.

Net result? Absolute and total Allied air superiority.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 04:47 AM
Michel Van Michel Van is offline
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actually thy produced 1433 Me 262 in last 2 years of war
but only 200 were operational, means they got spare part, fuel, ammo and got a pilot.

the rest was just standing around, some even dismantles to get needed spare part for the 200 flying Me 262.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 10:01 AM
Malice Malice is offline
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The Me262 was mass produced but not enough were able to get operational due to the loss of airfields, fuel shortages, the loss of experienced pilots and lack of spare parts.

The biggest problem facing the Me262 wasn't the failure to produce enough but leaving it too late. Considering the Germans flew the world's first jet aircraft in August 1939 there was no reason why the Germans could not have had Me262s deployed by, say, 1943 when it might've had a chance of being a real game changer.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by The Kiat View Post
And the 262 wasn't exactly an engineering masterpiece. I think they had to replace the engines fairly regularly. Ten hours might be an exaggeration, but if you need more engines just to keep a single aircraft airborne then the obvious target for the 8th Air Force would be the jet engine plants.
Actually the Me 262 was a very good design, as was its intended powerplant: the Jumo 004A, which had a service life of 200, to 250 hours. Unfortunately for the Me 262, the 004A needed to be manufactured using high grade steels and by late 1944 the majority of such steel was allocated to U-boat production. The Jumo 004B engine, which most Me 262's were fitted with, was built with only 1/3 the high grade steel of the 004A. The result was regular compressor blade failures and an engine service life of between 10 and 25 hours; the flawed economy in having to replace engines using 1/3 the high grade steels ten times as quickly is obvious to anyone except the National Socialist's centralised planners.

If the Me 262 is given higher production priority, this would translate into Jumo 004A engines in the nacelles of fighters in operational squadrons - which means a significant service improvement.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 11:01 AM
Imladrik Imladrik is offline
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Originally Posted by Malice View Post
The biggest problem facing the Me262 wasn't the failure to produce enough but leaving it too late. Considering the Germans barely flew the world's first jet aircraft in August 1939 there was no reason why the Germans could not have had Me262s deployed by, say, 1943 when it might've had a chance of being a real game changer.
Corrected for you.

Despite what some luftwaffe '46 fanboys mights thinks, the Me 262 wasn't slowed due to crazy politics, it was slowed because the engine was crap. It didn't produce enough thrust. And even when they managed to produce enough thrust, it was still plagued by problems and couldn't provide this thrust quickly (crap acceleration) which would be a problem with jet planes well unto the 60s IIRC (for example, the Tu-95 with turboprops could outrun the allied jet interceptors if they started at the same speed given it's far superior acceleration).
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Old January 15th, 2014, 11:08 AM
Michel Van Michel Van is offline
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Originally Posted by Cook View Post
Actually the Me 262 was a very good design, as was its intended powerplant: the Jumo 004A, which had a service life of 200, to 250 hours. Unfortunately for the Me 262, the 004A needed to be manufactured using high grade steels and by late 1944 the majority of such steel was allocated to U-boat production. The Jumo 004B engine, which most Me 262's were fitted with, was built with only 1/3 the high grade steel of the 004A. The result was regular compressor blade failures and an engine service life of between 10 and 25 hours; the flawed economy in having to replace engines using 1/3 the high grade steels ten times as quickly is obvious to anyone except the National Socialist's centralised planners.

If the Me 262 is given higher production priority, this would translate into Jumo 004A engines in the nacelles of fighters in operational squadrons - which means a significant service improvement.
even if they has solve that problem

Two of biggest problem for Me 262 was lack of Pilots and aircraft Fuel,
they even start produce Synthetic oil and 'Cuckoo' project of jet fuel made from ammonia,
Last one had make ghastly things with Jumo 004 engine...
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Old January 15th, 2014, 11:53 AM
JN1 JN1 is offline
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It would still be crippled by engine problems, shortages of fuel and pilots as several other posters have mentioned above. In any case for every ME262 the Germans could build the Allies could probably put four, or five jets into the air.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Michel Van View Post
even if they has solve that problem
It isn't so much a problem as a matter of prioritisation.

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Originally Posted by Michel Van View Post
Two of biggest problem for Me 262 was lack of Pilots and aircraft Fuel
Fuel was more readily available for the Me 262 because it did not require the high octane fuels necessary for the piston engine fighters.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 04:49 PM
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If the Me262 was in mass productoin by June 6, 1944 the Luftwaffe would be equipped with a high-performance jet interceptor far less capable of operating from standard fields and with engines of questionable reliability. Also, without ample doses of handwavium, the Luftwaffe would still be horribly outnumbered, and in fighter-vs-fighter combat, actual combat experience showed that the 262 was far from invincible in such a situation. In fact about the only clear advantage it had in fighter combat was speed that allowed it to break off combat at will - not a trait that one necessarily values if one want to kill the enemy. Its slow firing 30mm cannon were really suited for bomber interception.

Plus, the Luftwaffe would still need bunches of Fw 190s or Bf 109s to provide the jets and their bases aerial cover during takeffs and landings. No doubt that the availability of thousands of Me 262's in early 1944 with trained aircrew would have made the Allied daylight bombing campaign far more costly, but without a supporting force of high-performance piston-engined fighters, one wonders how many 262's would survive many landing runs of skies infested with P-51s and Tempests.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 05:40 PM
thaddeus thaddeus is offline
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always thought the priority should have been the R4 deployed across every aircraft by 1943, 1944 at latest

IIRC only 50- 60 Me-262s were flying at any time, how many 109s were still being made and flying even in 1945? thousands certainly.

so there was a Me model mass produced and ready by D-Day just needed to be more lethal.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 06:12 PM
LondoMollari LondoMollari is offline
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Me 262 was too little, too late. It could certainly not turn the tide of the war in Germany's favor. While air superiority was definitely important, the war was won, and lost, on the ground. And with allied bombers pounding Germany's airplane factories to dust, I don't see how it could happen in the first place.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 07:50 PM
Gunnarnz Gunnarnz is offline
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And with allied bombers pounding Germany's airplane factories to dust <snip>
They weren't doing a very good job. As has been pointed out earlier, Germany was still able to continue producing combat aircraft in sizable quantities right up to the end of the war. Granted they couldn't turn out the sheer quantities produced in the US or USSR, but they certainly had more aircraft than they could use.

Which brings us back to the main issue - the problem was not aircraft, it was strategic materials (including fuel) and pilots. A Luftwaffe that got it's pilot training programme under control early and systematically rotated experts back to training schools might help with that, but the lack of strategic materials led to issues like those discussed earlier with poor-quality components.
If you want ME-262s airborne in large numbers, there are several aspects that have to be addressed - issues of training, doctrine, and prioritisation of materials all have to be explored. The knock-on effects are tremendous.
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Old January 18th, 2014, 09:56 PM
Riain Riain is offline
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German jet engine development suffered far less hiccups and false starts than the British programme. Therefore it is more difficult to find PoDs which can accelerate German jet engine development, which is the key reason why the Me262 entered service when it did and not before.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...light=jet+pods

As for the British response, that had it's own significant problems which make a jet response to the jet threat difficult. While engine development issues could have conceivably been accelerated the main problem with the Meteor was the short engine nacelles limiting speed to 500mph due to compressibility. The long nacelles didn't become available until August 1945.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 09:32 AM
Devolved Devolved is offline
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Originally Posted by JosefStalin View Post
Could the ME 262 be mass produced in time for D-Day and if so what impact would it have on the attack?
Same old stuff.

Me 262 for D Day
Tiger Tank enters mass production earlier
Invade Russia a month earlier
Type XXI U boat enters service earlier.

These have all been done to death but I guess this website would die without recycling.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 12:39 PM
usertron2020 usertron2020 is offline
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Originally Posted by Devolved View Post
Same old stuff.

Me 262 for D Day
Tiger Tank enters mass production earlier
Invade Russia a month earlier
Type XXI U boat enters service earlier.

These have all been done to death but I guess this website would die without recycling.
Well, for 3 of those 4, you're right. But earlier Me 262's are not impossible, or even disagreeable, if Hitler and Goering don't interfere. As to the forum, it has policies against necro-posting. So if you think you have a new angle on some old idea, it's recommended you start a new thread. There are exceptions, of course. Like the Unspeakable Seamammal. That is strongly advised against. Self serving Uber-nationalist hyper-wanks can get pretty nasty, too. At least if they are political.
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Old January 19th, 2014, 07:20 PM
Riain Riain is offline
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Originally Posted by usertron2020 View Post
Well, for 3 of those 4, you're right. But earlier Me 262's are not impossible, or even disagreeable, if Hitler and Goering don't interfere. .....
That idea is overplayed since the lack of engines was the real delay. Despite the Hitler fighter-bomber order the initial 262 units, formed when engines became available, were fighter units although the first sortie peak of 56 in a day were f-b sorties in December 1944.
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