How could the Iroquois survive to become a US state?
- Thread starter TMS2224
- Start date
Alex Richards
Donor
Well, I think you need to avoid the split within the confederacy that led to the Tuscarora and Oneida siding with the colonists and the rest with Great Britain. And you definitely need to avoid the attack on the Mohawk valley that destroyed a lot of the established settlements.
So I think what's needed is for the policy of neutrality to last a longer and then have the Mohawks and the other 3 tribes persuaded to join the colonial cause (probably as they're doing better and it seems a better notion to side with the likely victors). Some form of treaty will also be necessary.
To actually be a state would be a major issue though. I can just about imagine them being able to maintain the confederacy lands as an organised territory through treaty with the colonists, but unless the Iroquois are willing to become the dumping ground for native Americans not wanted elsewhere (which given the history might just be possible with the right set of circumstances but would be very tricky), then I think they'll probably end up being moved in the long run.
So I think what's needed is for the policy of neutrality to last a longer and then have the Mohawks and the other 3 tribes persuaded to join the colonial cause (probably as they're doing better and it seems a better notion to side with the likely victors). Some form of treaty will also be necessary.
To actually be a state would be a major issue though. I can just about imagine them being able to maintain the confederacy lands as an organised territory through treaty with the colonists, but unless the Iroquois are willing to become the dumping ground for native Americans not wanted elsewhere (which given the history might just be possible with the right set of circumstances but would be very tricky), then I think they'll probably end up being moved in the long run.
There might be another path via the Lenape. During the Revolutionary War, the Fort Pitt treaty had the following:
And it is further agreed on between the contracting parties should it for the future be found conducive for the mutual interest of both parties to invite any other tribes who have been friends to the interest of the United States, to join the present confederation, and to form a state whereof the Delaware nation shall be the head, and have a representation in Congress: Provided, nothing contained in this article to be considered as conclusive until it meets with the approbation of Congress. And it is also the intent and meaning of this article, that no protection or countenance shall be afforded to any who are at present our enemies, by which they might escape the punishment they deserve.
Ultimately, this never went anywhere, neither side seems to have really acted on it, but with a few modest PODs, like Chief White Eyes surviving the Revolutionary War, the Lenape not changing sides, and a somewhat more successful assimilationist faction in the US, you might be able to see a moderately sized Indian state carved out somewhere. If the Iroquois were seen as supporting the US in the Revolutionary War, they might get lumped in.
And it is further agreed on between the contracting parties should it for the future be found conducive for the mutual interest of both parties to invite any other tribes who have been friends to the interest of the United States, to join the present confederation, and to form a state whereof the Delaware nation shall be the head, and have a representation in Congress: Provided, nothing contained in this article to be considered as conclusive until it meets with the approbation of Congress. And it is also the intent and meaning of this article, that no protection or countenance shall be afforded to any who are at present our enemies, by which they might escape the punishment they deserve.
Ultimately, this never went anywhere, neither side seems to have really acted on it, but with a few modest PODs, like Chief White Eyes surviving the Revolutionary War, the Lenape not changing sides, and a somewhat more successful assimilationist faction in the US, you might be able to see a moderately sized Indian state carved out somewhere. If the Iroquois were seen as supporting the US in the Revolutionary War, they might get lumped in.
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The only way personally seen to avoid the Oklahoma 'best scenario' might be to have a treaty allowing immigration, but only to those who are married to a native person and maintain their good character, 50% being recruited over in Europe and brought over. 10% are women, all being recruited from overseas.
Like the Cherokee IOTL, educated mixed bloods, especially those only 25% bloods, form a western educated leadership and structure that is more allowable to become a state without being totally compromised eventually. Unlike the Cherokee, it happens early, preferred before 1750, so gains enough momentum to maintain borders during the ARW or other conflicts. Possible, but still the odds are against.
The treaty would have to have enough teeth to allow the tribes to pick who comes over the Atlantic and for UK to pay for it. There might only be 5,000, but with a high birth rate and resistance to diseases inserted into the gene pool, it might just take hold.
Like the Cherokee IOTL, educated mixed bloods, especially those only 25% bloods, form a western educated leadership and structure that is more allowable to become a state without being totally compromised eventually. Unlike the Cherokee, it happens early, preferred before 1750, so gains enough momentum to maintain borders during the ARW or other conflicts. Possible, but still the odds are against.
The treaty would have to have enough teeth to allow the tribes to pick who comes over the Atlantic and for UK to pay for it. There might only be 5,000, but with a high birth rate and resistance to diseases inserted into the gene pool, it might just take hold.
There's really no way outside of a POD that goes to the way back that would get the US to accept the Haudenosaunee or any Native tribe/confederation of tribes as a state within the Union. The US was sadly built on white supremacy, and keeping Natives out of their society went along with that (with individuals serving as exceptions, but I'm speaking about this in a more broad manner). At best they were considered primitives that could be educated into 'proper' civilization and even might get absorbed into the greater society of the settlers. But even the 'Civilized Tribes' were stripped of their lands and exiled once they got in the way of white expansion.
The only situation that could really shape out would be they somehow can function as a border state between the US and Canada, or more likely a surviving New France and the British colonies. Thande's TL Look to the West shows another example of the Haudenosaunee becoming protected subjects of the British crown after colonial reform leaves the British Colonies more of a separate empire that's in personal union with Britain. So in that regards it's more of an enhanced reservation/reserve system with their autonomy respected.
As a Mohawk I appreciate all those who really want to try and give us a better deal, but by this point we're fucked and there's really only a little bit of wiggle room to negotiate how fucked we get in the end. Sorry.
The only situation that could really shape out would be they somehow can function as a border state between the US and Canada, or more likely a surviving New France and the British colonies. Thande's TL Look to the West shows another example of the Haudenosaunee becoming protected subjects of the British crown after colonial reform leaves the British Colonies more of a separate empire that's in personal union with Britain. So in that regards it's more of an enhanced reservation/reserve system with their autonomy respected.
As a Mohawk I appreciate all those who really want to try and give us a better deal, but by this point we're fucked and there's really only a little bit of wiggle room to negotiate how fucked we get in the end. Sorry.
Building on the possibility listed here, ISTR another scenario where arriving Germanic settlers from Scandinavia and Continental Europe head west and establish a free state somewhere in the Upper Midwest. Assuming that could work out, maybe they ally with the various tribes not yet under government control (along with escaping refugees) and help give them some "teeth" against Anglo-American annexation? After all, the Germans were known for being more tolerant and fair with Native Americans than the rest of the Europeans arriving (notably, Fredericksburg TX is the site of the signing of one of the only Euro-Native treaties formed that was never broken by either party).
When could they have established a colony in the Upper Midwest? Without a coastline for support the local tribes would probably have absorbed or expelled them during the heyday of colonization of North America, and afterwards everything on the continent was claimed by the US or the European powers.
I'm thinking the best shot here would be for different tribes to ally, and to have good relations with the early US, that results in an Indian state being admitted into the Union as was occasionally suggested OTL.
I meant AFTER the American Revolution. Granted that's probably too late for the Iroquois nation itself, but at least it's somewhere that could conceivably stand a chance against being conquered. As for the "unify and ally" thing, it's been brought up that there was no way in hell the Americans would ever respect the Native nations enough not to overrun them. I'm sure there were members of the Founding Fathers that would've been okay with that plan, but I doubt the average homesteader or land-hungry prospector would've given two shits what Ben Franklin or any of those Native-friendly persons would think.
Of course, there's the idea that the Continental Congress agrees to adopt a policy of coexistence with the tribe(s) if a way westward is left open in the process, and cracks down on expansion into the Native lands. It'd need a POD that changes Colonial attitudes towards the Tribes though, perhaps a different/butterflied French & Indian War?
Of course, there's the idea that the Continental Congress agrees to adopt a policy of coexistence with the tribe(s) if a way westward is left open in the process, and cracks down on expansion into the Native lands. It'd need a POD that changes Colonial attitudes towards the Tribes though, perhaps a different/butterflied French & Indian War?
Actually, even George Washington thought that a line of settlement between white and Indian territories was a good idea, and with OTL reservations (then much larger) and other proposals of the time that other posters have mentioned, I don't think an "Indian" state is ASB. I mean state as in United States, not in nation. An independent Iroquois state after the ARW is probably impossible. But I don't at all think a separate Indian state, within the United States, dominated by the Iroquois is. The main problem is ending up with an "Oklahoma" scenario where the territory is originally set aside for Indians only but then legislators eventually cave and let white settlers into parts of it. To counter that you need strong Iroquois population growth and organization to police their territory, the latter of which I'm fully confident they would have been capable of, the former of which might have been obtainable with some mixed marriages and additions from other tribes.
1) what he said.
2) if they are a state, they CANT restrict white immigration, and would be totally swamped.
Explain Hawaii then. That state has never had a white majority.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
My understanding is that Hawaii had more Asian immigration than immigration from whites leaving the state (including everyone who isn't white) to have a majority in the area. A hypothetical Iroquois state in western New York would be far closer and end up being a majority white state, though one with a significant (relatively speaking) native minority, like New Mexico or Montana.
True. An Asian majority is not the same thing as an indigenous majority.
Perhaps, but the natives are a tiny fraction of the population, and have little sway over the state.
Hawai'i is also a lot farther from the base of the US white population than Upstate New York is.
katchen
Banned
What you are suggesting might actually be feasible, BUT IN CANADA, NOT THE US. I could see the British making a treaty with all of the Haudanasee giving them the Mesopotamia, the territory between the St. Lawrence River and the Ottawa River, or even including some of the upper Ottawa and Northern as an organized Protectorate within the British Commonwealth. White settlement along Lake Ontario and Erie could simply leapfrog it. Unlike the Americans, when the British made a treaty like that, they generally kept it. And at Confederation in 1869, rather than a Reserve, Haudanasee could Confederate and get a seat in Parliament or two. Maybe some of the Five Nations could be elevated to the Peerage. All the Iroquois would need to migrate across the border to Canada soon after 1781 for this to work, though.
The British generally kept treaties? Maybe in North America, but the Australian Aborigines, the Maori and various Southern Africa tribes (not to mention India) would probably say otherwise and for good reason. And while Canada likes to portray itself as altruistic and such, bear in mind that they never had the same population pressures that the US had due to immigration and high birth rates, especially since most of Canada is a frozen tundra. I don't say this to justify American betrayal of the Native tribes, but Britain was certainly no more of an angel when it comes to dealing with non-white peoples where they settled than America was.
That being said, perhaps a protectorate in the location you mention (specifically the one north of Ottawa) could work out. The thing is to keep what westward expansion there is in Canada located closer to the Great Lakes or along the US-Canadian border.
That being said, perhaps a protectorate in the location you mention (specifically the one north of Ottawa) could work out. The thing is to keep what westward expansion there is in Canada located closer to the Great Lakes or along the US-Canadian border.
The British/Canadian governments kept treaties better than the US did - but that's not saying much. In addition, while they were much politer than the US, the natives got shafted worse in some ways. Look at the size of Canadian Reserves vs US Reservations.
There's no way on earth that the Iroquois get all of southern Ontario. No, they might get a couple of chunks of land near Montreal and Brantford. Wait! That's what happened OTL.