WI: The Mughal Empire Doesn't Collapse

Let's say Aurangzeb never becomes Mughal Emperor, instead acting in some lesser capacity, or possibly ending up removed from favor. How would an intact Mughal Empire affect geopolitics? Would it prevent the British from colonizing India?
 
Well, the first six Mughal Emperors were more or less paragons of rule in their own fashion (well maybe not so much the second one) so they had to run out eventually. Still if they had continued on their current course they may have been able to avoid the Religious Communal Violence and the Break Up of the Empire.
 
Aurangazeb was not the culprit..Shsh Jahan bankrupted the Empire and allowed border land kingdoms like the Marathas to flourish. The turning point was the Battle Off Bombay where the Portuguese won. If that event was reversed then India and Pakistan today would be united and it would be a Muslim country.
 
Aurangazeb was not the culprit..Shsh Jahan bankrupted the Empire and allowed border land kingdoms like the Marathas to flourish. The turning point was the Battle Off Bombay where the Portuguese won. If that event was reversed then India and Pakistan today would be united and it would be a Muslim country.
I always thought that Aurangzeb and his Islamic fundamentalism were mostly responsible for the decline of the Mughal Empire. Can you explain further?
 
Aurangazeb was not the culprit..Shsh Jahan bankrupted the Empire and allowed border land kingdoms like the Marathas to flourish. The turning point was the Battle Off Bombay where the Portuguese won. If that event was reversed then India and Pakistan today would be united and it would be a Muslim country.

Ehm, it was Aurangazeb who destroyed the social fabric that had united the Empire since Great Akbar and vastly overextended the borders that kicked up the ant hill of the Marathas.
 
Dara Shikoh comes to mind when it comes to preserving the Mughals though.

Had Dara Shikoh won the battle of succession, he would have become a second Akbar and the Mughal Empire would have lasted longer. His eldest son Sulaiman Shikoh was also a brave and able commander and would have been a worthy successor to Dara Shikoh. The future of the Empire for two more generations would have been safe. Since the stability of the empire was dependent on the personality of the emperor a prediction for a distant future is not plausible.
 
India and Pakistan today would be united and it would be a Muslim country.

It most certainly would not be, even during the Mughal Empires height Hindus were the majority, and adding ALL of India is going to lead to Muslims being an even smaller minority.
 
I always thought that Aurangzeb and his Islamic fundamentalism were mostly responsible for the decline of the Mughal Empire. Can you explain further?

Within 6 years of his reign, in 1633 Shah Jahan imposed Sharia Law, ordered destruction of new churches and temples. In this he reversed his grandfather Akbar's liberal policies. He also raised taxes which made the Mughal Empire one of the richest kingdom in the world but also increased widespread social resentment.

His fascination with architecture left the economy growing slower than usual. And Aurangazeb was not the one who overextended the Empire. Shah Jahan had campaigns in Baglana, Mewar, Ahmednagar, Kandahar and Bundelkhand.

Now, his military strategy of sending his army in 4 different fronts, each commanded by one of his sons was a debacle in itself. When he fell ill, Dara was left having to face each of his brothers who were all commanders with large armies at their disposal.
 
Within 6 years of his reign, in 1633 Shah Jahan imposed Sharia Law, ordered destruction of new churches and temples. In this he reversed his grandfather Akbar's liberal policies. He also raised taxes which made the Mughal Empire one of the richest kingdom in the world but also increased widespread social resentment.

His fascination with architecture left the economy growing slower than usual. And Aurangazeb was not the one who overextended the Empire. Shah Jahan had campaigns in Baglana, Mewar, Ahmednagar, Kandahar and Bundelkhand.

Now, his military strategy of sending his army in 4 different fronts, each commanded by one of his sons was a debacle in itself. When he fell ill, Dara was left having to face each of his brothers who were all commanders with large armies at their disposal.
True, but the situation was far from unsalvageable. If Dara Shikoh became emperor, things probably would have turned out much better.
 
Ehm, it was Aurangazeb who destroyed the social fabric that had united the Empire since Great Akbar and vastly overextended the borders that kicked up the ant hill of the Marathas.

Not really, with the first. Aurangzeb generally represented the path the Empire was taking which started with Shah Jahan; under SJ, the Empire's revenue only doubled while the expenditures tripled. Say what you will about the beauty of Shah Jahan's endeavours, but those cost a lot of money.

And honestly, the imposition of jizya did not really damage the rich or even the middle class of India; it hurt the poor- a poor that was already being hurt even under the rule of Jahangir onwards. In fact, Abraham Eraly posits that Aurangzeb tried to make the Empire more administratively capable so he could actually take care of poverty and such, stating that he came second only to Akbar in that regard.

The biggest problem with the Mughal Empire, is that by nature, its nobles were feeding off of the land to an unsustainable degree; they tried to squeeze as much revenue as they could from the land before moving on to other assignments. Akbar toyed with changing the system completely, and scrapped all land revenue assignments for a few years and solely paid cash salaries but that didn't work. The emperors themselves were at odds with the lower nobility in this regard, and the way to avoid the Empire feeding off of its people is to establish fully landed nobles similar to the zamindari class and the altamghas. It's something Tony Jones tackled in his TL, and it's something I'm tackling in mine (shameless plug).

True, but the situation was far from unsalvageable. If Dara Shikoh became emperor, things probably would have turned out much better.

Not really. Dara Shikoh was an intellectual- he was interested in a lot of intellectual pursuits and sure, he was interested in spiritual matters, but he did not have Akbar's authority, and that's what counts. He did not even have the trust of his army, and when he unseated himself from his mount, his army thought he had been killed and was launched into disarray; Aurangzeb, meanwhile did the same, and his army knew he was fighting. Dara would have been a weak emperor, and perhaps age and experience might have fixed that, but it is no certainty that he would have been a better emperor. An emperor that had no control over his vassals would not have been able to effectuate the change needed in the empire.

In addition, Bahadur Shah (Aurangzeb's son) was not a bad emperor and even reconciled with many of the Empire's enemies; it is a shame he died after only five years.
 
It most certainly would not be, even during the Mughal Empires height Hindus were the majority, and adding ALL of India is going to lead to Muslims being an even smaller minority.

There would have been continued conversions however; I'd say that overall, Islam would still be a minority but with a substantially larger population; 40% vs the 20% of OTL's Mughal Empire. Especially since 'Hinduism' wasn't one religion back then, and you had a lot of possible paths for 'Hinduism' to develop.
 
There would have been continued conversions however; I'd say that overall, Islam would still be a minority but with a substantially larger population; 40% vs the 20% of OTL's Mughal Empire. Especially since 'Hinduism' wasn't one religion back then, and you had a lot of possible paths for 'Hinduism' to develop.
Could this mean the end of sati? Reform of the caste system? I'd like to see some of the more repugnant parts of Hinduism come to an end without East India Company or the Raj.
 
It most certainly would not be, even during the Mughal Empires height Hindus were the majority, and adding ALL of India is going to lead to Muslims being an even smaller minority.

Yeah. At most they'd be like ten percent of the population.

Could this mean the end of sati? Reform of the caste system? I'd like to see some of the more repugnant parts of Hinduism come to an end without East India Company or the Raj.

Sati was never widespread in India to begin with so bringing it down isn't hard.
 
Could this mean the end of sati? Reform of the caste system? I'd like to see some of the more repugnant parts of Hinduism come to an end without East India Company or the Raj.

Well, when the Mughal Empire was in full flower, they did try to both regulate and, eventually to suppress the practice of sati.
The emperor Aurangzeb was the strongest opponent of sati among the Mughals. In December 1663, he issued an "order that in all lands under Mughal control, never again should the officials allow a woman to be burnt".Although the possibility of an evasion of government orders through payment of bribes existed, later European travelers record that by the end of Aurangzeb’s reign, sati was much abated and very rare, except by some Rajahs' wives.

As for the Caste system, the Mughals were more than willing to accommodate it and in fact, during the time of Muslim rule in the North, even before the Mughals, many Muslims were organized into their own caste equivalents. There also was formally a degree of cross-caste social mobility which slowly withered perhaps due to the disruption of Hindu (in all its various forms) culture by various invasions in the present historical era. Mughal rule damaged and modified the upper class castes but, particularly in rural India, the caste system actually strengthened, in part due to intensifying anti-Muslim feeling.

The Caste system might have slowly withered as (if) more Indians converted to Islam (or Christianity, for that matter), if Mughal rule had successfully stayed vital, but out and out suppression by the Mughals probably would have encountered massive civil insurrection.
 
As for the Caste system, the Mughals were more than willing to accommodate it and in fact, during the time of Muslim rule in the North, even before the Mughals, many Muslims were organized into their own caste equivalents. There also was formally a degree of cross-caste social mobility which slowly withered perhaps due to the disruption of Hindu (in all its various forms) culture by various invasions in the present historical era. Mughal rule damaged and modified the upper class castes but, particularly in rural India, the caste system actually strengthened, in part due to intensifying anti-Muslim feeling.

The Caste system might have slowly withered as (if) more Indians converted to Islam (or Christianity, for that matter), if Mughal rule had successfully stayed vital, but out and out suppression by the Mughals probably would have encountered massive civil insurrection.
Not only in the North, but in the South as well, where caste was a stronger force. The Mughals could have encouraged Bhakti as an alternative to conversion to Islam, and attempted to take measures to 'regulate' faith, as strange and implausible as that may sound for caste to be weakened.

As for sati, it was never widespread, and in a lot of cases (at least according to Mughal World by Abraham Eraly) it was consensually done- though I'm a bit suspicious of that. Throughout Mughal rule, however, from Akbar onwards it was slowing down and it was quite rare.
 
Not only in the North, but in the South as well, where caste was a stronger force. The Mughals could have encouraged Bhakti as an alternative to conversion to Islam, and attempted to take measures to 'regulate' faith, as strange and implausible as that may sound for caste to be weakened.

As for sati, it was never widespread, and in a lot of cases (at least according to Mughal World by Abraham Eraly) it was consensually done- though I'm a bit suspicious of that. Throughout Mughal rule, however, from Akbar onwards it was slowing down and it was quite rare.

As far as I know symbolic Sati was far more popular, women pretend to attempt to throw themselves on the fire but they are stopped by various family members.
 
There would have been continued conversions however; I'd say that overall, Islam would still be a minority but with a substantially larger population; 40% vs the 20% of OTL's Mughal Empire. Especially since 'Hinduism' wasn't one religion back then, and you had a lot of possible paths for 'Hinduism' to develop.

I really don't see it surpassing 35%.

IOTL Islam had already more or less reached its largest in Central India, while Southern India was at the time the core of Hindudom (and the area with the most consistent version), even the Christian minorities only managed to grow because they arrived so early and were originally unique and useful to convert to (they adopted the local social mores hence people stopped converting since it was no longer seen as useful), while in Northern India there was room fro more conversions, but the Hindu Belt was'nt going to budge.
 
I really don't see it surpassing 35%.

IOTL Islam had already more or less reached its largest in Central India, while Southern India was at the time the core of Hindudom (and the area with the most consistent version), even the Christian minorities only managed to grow because they arrived so early and were originally unique and useful to convert to (they adopted the local social mores hence people stopped converting since it was no longer seen as useful), while in Northern India there was room fro more conversions, but the Hindu Belt was'nt going to budge.

Even in the south there's room for religious conversion; although it's more rigid. The north, however could see a lot of flux and depending on how Hinduism develops, Islam could gain more power; for example if Hinduism becomes more streamlined, then Islam would be more limited. With the right POD, however, you could easily see Hinduism becoming even more fractured, and so Islam would be seen as a stable alternative and an easy way to rise higher in rank.
 
There was an incident when Aurangazeb was almost trampled by an elephant. Perhaps if he hits his head he can be less bigoty.
 
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