AHC: Ideologies based on psychology instead of economics

Alkahest

Banned
In Shikaku-Mon (an althist scenario from GURPS Alternate Earths, and my favorite TL of all time - look it up! It's good!), one of the many changes is that economics is a relatively underdeveloped science, while psychology (as well as something we might call memetics or semiotics) is used as the foundation for the world's most influential ideology, synarchism.

In essence, synarchism (developed by this world's Marx-equivalent) explores how ideas and sympathies influence the individual and society, and how "rational" ideas and sympathies should replace old, irrational ones, creating a utopian society. (Spoiler alert: It's about as successful as OTL communism.) People don't really care all that much about economics, and there are no analyses of ownership of the means of production or something similar.

Could such an ideology feasibly arise? Is our modern reliance of economics when it comes to political discourse a historical fluke, and could we instead use more psychological terms when analyzing societies?
 
I don't own the GURPS book in question; how does what you're looking for differ from, say, the Cult of Reason or similar political cults centered around purity of thought?
 
Interesting point about the way societies developed ideas. The problem, though, is that historically a lot of ideologies were developed, adopted, or propagated by states and governments - and states have generally had a lot more to do with the economies then psychologies of their peoples. It's just easier to manage and deal with for a government.

Cheers,
Ganesha
 
One thing to remember is that ideologies can be successfully introduced because they appeal to people (by providing them with the proper incentives), and successfully maintained in the long term because they provide or protect something that people value.

Another thing to remember is that economics actually is the study of incentives and value, and doesn’t just apply to finance etc. When deciding wether you value honor over survival, you are making an economic decision. When considering that your belief in a god, or in the supreme importance of you nation, is your ultimate motivation (your highest incentive), you are performing an economic analysis.

An ideology that does not provide incentives and does not, at its core, provide or maintain something we value will not be successful. Incentives are the means, and values are the ends. Even an ideology that uses psychology as a means will still have to accept that psychological incentives are still incentives, and moreover, it will still have to work towards the same ends: things we value.

It seems to me, then, that it is not actually possible to take “economics” out of ideology. We can only make the economics less obvious, and apply them to non-monetary (or even non-material) issues. So yes, our modern reliance on economics when it comes to political discourse may be a historical fluke, but our reliance on the economic evaluations themselves is not. We are always making economic choices, even when we are unaware of it. The very act of choosing between two options is an economic evaluation in itself.

God or country?

Duty or integrity?

Love or honor?

Well; which do you value higher? And what are your incentives? That's what it's all about. Economics cannot be discarded, or even truly disregarded.
 
Basing an ideology on psychology is like basing an ideology on hair color in a world where the vast majority of people change their hair color yearly.
 
Aren't most historically right-wing ideologies based on psychology? I don't mean explicable through psychology - all ideologies are - but based on assumptions about how the human soul works. Not modern psychology, of course. But you could hardly say Marxism or Manchester liberalism are based on an understanding of economics anything like the modern one, either. They just happen to use a slightly more compatible vocabulary. But when an ideology bases itself on things like 'national pride', 'racial purity', 'honour', 'loyalty', 'glory', 'work, family, fatherland' - those are, by contemporary understanding, terms of great significance to the inner world of a human being. Many supporters of such systems also maintained that a purely economic ideology (any flavour of liberalism, mercantilism or socialism) was inadequate because even if it made people wealthier, it left their spirits, their souls or their hearts unfulfilled. If that's not psychology, then what is?
 
One thing to remember is that ideologies can be successfully introduced because they appeal to people (by providing them with the proper incentives), and successfully maintained in the long term because they provide or protect something that people value.

Another thing to remember is that economics actually is the study of incentives and value, and doesn’t just apply to finance etc. When deciding wether you value honor over survival, you are making an economic decision. When considering that your belief in a god, or in the supreme importance of you nation, is your ultimate motivation (your highest incentive), you are performing an economic analysis.

An ideology that does not provide incentives and does not, at its core, provide or maintain something we value will not be successful. Incentives are the means, and values are the ends. Even an ideology that uses psychology as a means will still have to accept that psychological incentives are still incentives, and moreover, it will still have to work towards the same ends: things we value.

It seems to me, then, that it is not actually possible to take “economics” out of ideology. We can only make the economics less obvious, and apply them to non-monetary (or even non-material) issues. So yes, our modern reliance on economics when it comes to political discourse may be a historical fluke, but our reliance on the economic evaluations themselves is not. We are always making economic choices, even when we are unaware of it. The very act of choosing between two options is an economic evaluation in itself.

God or country?

Duty or integrity?

Love or honor?

Well; which do you value higher? And what are your incentives? That's what it's all about. Economics cannot be discarded, or even truly disregarded.

You just described psychology. Love vs. honor is more obviously a psychological decision than an economic one.
 
The ideological clash could be between "emotionalism" and "endurancism", one for love and understanding, the other for toughness and endurance.

Of course, those would be fairly broad ideologies, with economics playing more of a part the more specific you get. Emotionalism tends "left", Endurancism tends "right".
 
You just described psychology. Love vs. honor is more obviously a psychological decision than an economic one.

My point is not that psychology cannot be involved, it is that 'economics' deals with all incentives, and all judgements regarding value.

Therefore, it doesn't really matter if something is "more obviously a psychological decision than an economic one"; a comparision is a valuation, and a comparison of immaterial issues (such as love and honor) is still a valuation.

Which was my point; namely that even though you may design a system that seems (not is) "more obviously psychological," there will still be incentives and valuations at play below the surface. So again, I conclude: economics cannot be discarded, and can only be ignored at your own peril.
 
My point is not that psychology cannot be involved, it is that 'economics' deals with all incentives, and all judgements regarding value.
And psychology does it too. People use both those sciences to study decision making. I'm not arguing that people wouldn't make decisions using mental faculties that have been studied by economists, and I don't believe anyone in this thread would make such a claim. I'm simply saying that those mental faculties are not the exclusive domain of that science.
 
Synarchism as briefly presented in the Shikaku-mon writeup differs from OTL totalitarian ideologies only in that there is no pretense of universal egalitarianism - while any individual might be reshapable into any profession, we can't all be proletarian laborers, or honorable soldiers, or educated professionals, or generalist managers, so it would be counterproductive to instill the same ideas, morals and values in all members of a society. Its natural tendency is toward a caste system, although not necessarily a hereditary caste system.

The key difference appears to be that in OTL, the systematic and scientific study of the human mind was first undertaken by medical doctors, whose Hippocratic Oath kept the emphasis on benefiting the individual being studied. In Shikaku-mon, the systematic and scientific study of the human mind was first undertaken by political theorists and economists, whose ethical framework is - rather different.
 
Benthamism is going to be fairly big in one of my timelines. But, as is customary to many of my works, this ideology is going to undergo a few unexpected dark twists along the way... ;)
 
I think a national ideology must be based around a national structuring. Whether it be freedom vs. autocracy or capitalism vs. communism, that is what drives a nation. It's much harder to build a nation around how one person should live compared to how a nation should be run (just as it's hard to act as an individual based off of an overarching ideology).
 
Aren't most historically right-wing ideologies based on psychology? I don't mean explicable through psychology - all ideologies are - but based on assumptions about how the human soul works. Not modern psychology, of course. But you could hardly say Marxism or Manchester liberalism are based on an understanding of economics anything like the modern one, either. They just happen to use a slightly more compatible vocabulary. But when an ideology bases itself on things like 'national pride', 'racial purity', 'honour', 'loyalty', 'glory', 'work, family, fatherland' - those are, by contemporary understanding, terms of great significance to the inner world of a human being. Many supporters of such systems also maintained that a purely economic ideology (any flavour of liberalism, mercantilism or socialism) was inadequate because even if it made people wealthier, it left their spirits, their souls or their hearts unfulfilled. If that's not psychology, then what is?
A Frankfurt School person would argue that it's 'aestheticization' that is being pushed by many right-wing (and left-wing in the American sense) parties. Aside from theories of distribution and economics, many parties seem to push for an 'ideal' state of being, and the two sides' end-goal look remarkably similar. Both want harmony, peace, and other optimal psychological states for their citizens.

I don't think, though, that there is one single psychological state that people want (or that can be achieved).
 
My point is not that psychology cannot be involved, it is that 'economics' deals with all incentives, and all judgements regarding value.

Therefore, it doesn't really matter if something is "more obviously a psychological decision than an economic one"; a comparision is a valuation, and a comparison of immaterial issues (such as love and honor) is still a valuation.

Which was my point; namely that even though you may design a system that seems (not is) "more obviously psychological," there will still be incentives and valuations at play below the surface. So again, I conclude: economics cannot be discarded, and can only be ignored at your own peril.

What you've been describing in this thread sounds like rational choice theory, which I regard as an excuse for the discipline of economics to 'colonise' other disciplines. I'm not singling economics out in this regard since each of the social sciences has developed a way to try and apply their theories to the other social sciences. But, for example, one could just as well argue psychology is the basis for economics through behavioural economics.
 

Alkahest

Banned
Hey everyone! Thanks a lot for your replies, many insightful ideas here.

First of all, as for the whole "economics can describe all value judgments"-argument, I agree. That doesn't necessarily mean that economics has to be the foundation for any ideology that deals with value judgments, however. A person deciding whether to eat a bowl of ice cream or going to church can be described by economics, evolutionary psychology, neurology, semiotics, Freudianism, and a whole bunch of other academic fields. I'd maintain that different fields would give different, though not necessarily exclusive, answers, and that an ideology putting more weight on one answer would look different from one focusing on the answer provided by another field. Of course, in a "Psychologist" society there will be academics putting an economic spin on traditional Psychologist dogma, and vice versa. You just have to look at all the different analyses of Marxism in OTL academia to see that effect.

Second of all, I don't necessarily agree that governments should care more about economics than psychology, although it is from our perspective much easier to see how economics might be integrated in an official state ideology. Remember that for a very long time, the government cared a lot about the religion of its subjects, and several OTL governments still do. In a modern, secular democracy such an attitude just seems weird and pointless, but back in the days that was seen as a big deal by the rulers of Europe. I can easily see them replacing "Our citizens must be Protestants or anarchy and chaos will rule the streets!" with "Our citizens must be neurotypical/have a strong innate sense of duty/be free from archaic emotionalist constructs or anarchy and chaos will rule the streets!"
 

Alkahest

Banned
I thought that I should write up short descriptions of some example ideologies, just to give you guys a sense of what I have in mind. Note that these are just from the top of my head, so they are not necessarily well-thought-out. Anyways:

Integrated Hyperreality Ontology (IHO, Orthodox Ferrarism): Developed by evolutionary psychologist and political philosopher Thiago Ferrari and his closest circle at the University of Salamanca in the early 19th century, this ideology is founded on Ferrari's studies regarding supernormal stimuli. According to Ferrari many, if not most, of mankind's societal problems are derived from the clash between the psychological shortcuts to evolutionary success developed during mankind's early history and the demands put on human psyches by modern societies. Put simply, we evolved to like things we no longer have any reason to like.

Ferrari's solution (now regarded by even his most orthodox followers to suffer from a naïvety born from the science's undeveloped stage in 1812, when Ferrari published A System for Improving Manlike Behavior) was to use top-down symbol manipulation (or propaganda, according to Ferrari's critics) to steer the positive and negative psychological responses to certain stimuli in a societally harmonious direction. Promiscuity would be replaced with content monogamy via fidelity-focused erotic stimuli, inter-religious and inter-racial conflict would be replaced with cultural integration by suppressing cladistic stimuli, economic exploitation would be replaced with mutually beneficial cooperation by promoting altruistic stimuli, etcetera.

Orthodox Ferrarism's reputation has suffered from its usage by several totalitarian regimes in the 20th century. While Ferrari himself was a strict pacifist, many rulers used his insights to steer their subjects' aggression in destructive wars and ethnic purges. The millions of victims killed in the death-camps of the Turkish Ontology remain the ideology's greatest shame.

Objectivism (Universal Reality Ontology, URO): While the Spanish-speaking world quickly embraced IHO, the Germanic intellectual milieu abhorred what was considered "decadent southern subjectivism". Karl Egonsson, a psychologist at the University of Lund, wrote a lengthy rebuttal of Ferrari's theses, published in 1814 as A Defense of Objective Reason. According to Egonsson, while it was true that some people did construct a "hyperreality" detached from objective reality, reason alone could dispel this illusion and put the human mind on equal footing with the mind of God (used metaphorically; Egonsson was an atheist). While in itself not proposing a political program, Egonsson's ideas were celebrated by those disturbed by the implications of Ferrari's theories. It fell on George Watson, an English-speaking philosopher living in New Sweden, to develop what came to be known as Objectivism, or sometimes as Universal Reality Ontology, or URO.

According to Objectivism, there exists one objective reality, and it is the duty of the government to give its citizens access to this reality. This is best done via state-funded scientific research and public education. In turn, these citizens will be able to contribute to society in a concrete, non-subjective way, further strengthening the next generation, and so forth. Subjectivist forces, such as religion and non-Objectivist ideologies, are to be combated and marginalized.

New Sweden became the first, and still most prominent, state to adopt an "orthodox" URO program. Churches were turned into "optimized" storage facilities, poets and other "emotionalist" producers were sent to work camps, even individual names were replaced with "efficient" numbers. Despite all these radical changes, it was the economy that finally did New Sweden in. A belief in the ability to "objectively" plan every aspect of society led to a horribly inefficient command economy, which eventually collapsed under the weight of black markets and widespread cynicism. For this reason, modern Objectivism is far less radical, and has a more moderate economic program.

Anarcho-Solipsistic Hyperreality Ontology (ASHO, Left Ferrarism, Munkholmism): Already when Ferrari was still alive, several students impressed by his scientific ideas but unconvinced by his political and philosophical conclusions broke from his followers. This group, then known as the "Young Ferrarists" or, disparagingly, the "Coffee House Ferrarists", were known for their anti-authoritarian streak and disbelief that the "hyperreality" (the Ferrarist term for the reality we want to perceive as a result of our supernormal stimuli-seeking minds) could ever be the same for several different people in any meaningful way. Anders Munkholm, the leader of the group, suggested that the correct way to approach the problem was to maximize the individual "constructor's" ability to project its own hyperreality on the social structures it interacted with. A harmonious society would be created when everyone was able to create the world they wanted to live in, in a way that minimized inter-hyperreality frictions.

Since this is in many ways even more wildly utopic than IHO, later Left Ferrarists would be more moderate and break from many fundamental ideas created by Munkholm (who remained, until the day he died, unconvinced of the existence of any mind except his own). In practice, modern political ASHO emphasizes individual freedoms and a "symbol-neutral" government. ASHO remains highly critical of any attempt at "public information", and almost always vote against state-run schools. Like most Ferrarists, Left Ferrarists have no set policy when it comes to economic matters, although they tend toward the laissez-faire end of the spectrum.

Edenism: A survivor of the Turkish Ontology death-camps, anthropologist Fatima Canaan dedicated her life to understanding human cruelty and violence. Unsatisfied with the standard Ferrarist explanations, she became convinced that humans were a result of two originally separate "root races" merging. The original, "Edenic", vegetarian, communal, matriarchal apes represented the ideal state of mankind, while the "Werewolves", cannibalistic, patriarchal warrior apes, represented the forces that led to war and aggression in society. She described her theory in the 1920 book Man Into Wolf.

Canaan's suggested solution, later developed into more sophisticated form by her followers, was to in every aspect of life and society imitate the Edenics and shun "Werewolf" influences. Edenism therefore proscribes vegetarianism, free love, pacifism and communal ownership. Canaan originally didn't suggest a political program as such, as she thought modern society was too corrupted by lupine influences. Instead, she argued that those willing to get in touch with their Edenic roots should shield themselves from outside culture, living in separated communes with like-minded friends.

However, Canaan's ideas have been adopted by several groups dissatisfied by the Ferrarist/Objectivist debate, and turned into a broad collection of ideological systems. Many academics, while skeptical of the literal truth of the claims made by Canaan and her Man Into Wolf, argue that her archetypical analysis of the human psyche holds valuable insight into aggression and instinctive methods of conflict-resolution. Modern Edenism focuses on drives as fundamental to understanding human behavior, rather than the impressions of Ferrarism or the knowledge of Objectivism.

Fenrirism (Werewolfism): Published by the mysterious author only known as "Fenrir" in 1933, Wolf Into Space agreed with many of the ideas expressed by Canaan and combined them with insights drawn from ASHO. According to Fenrir, Canaan's "drives" can be seen as identical with the "supernormal stimuli response systems" of ASHO, which in effect means that the Canaanite drives are what create the Munkholmist-Ferrarist "hyperreality". Much like Canaan, and unlike Munkholm, Fenrir believed that it was virtually impossible to create a harmonious society simultaneously constructed by the Edenic root drive and the Werewolf root drive. The vastly different perspectives would make conflict certain, which meant that one "race" by necessity must dominate the other. Unlike Canaan, Fenrir argued that the Werewolves were the one who must take control, as they were inherently superior due to their "vitality".

Fenrirism is currently seen by most of the world as the most dangerous terrorism-inspiring ideology, as it actively encourages cruelty towards "lesser" beings and conflict as a way to weed the weak from the strong. The sole officially Fenririst state, the Drakesland Republic, is one of the few countries where slavery remains legal. Africans are seen as more "Edenic" than the "Wolfish" North Europeans, and are treated accordingly. In the rest of the world, Fenrirism is mostly popular with young males, who see it as an excuse to wear wolf masks and burn down the houses of the "Edenics".

Despite this, academic Fenrirism remains a semi-respected field, often intersecting with academic ASHO in its analysis of individual hyperreality-construction.

Teleology-Enhanced Hyperreality Ontology (TEHO, Techno-Ferrarism): The latest major Ferrarist movement was born from the field of genetic engineering. Noting that IHO assumes an unchanging neural structure, Siamese geneticist Krit Boonpojanasoontorn suggested that the failures of Ferrarist states could be derived from the imperfect base material they had to work with, the human mind. No amount of symbol manipulation could turn a savanna-optimized ape into a society-optimized citizen, argued Boonpojanasoontorn. The solution, then, was simple: Genetically engineer better humans, who reacted to stimuli in a societally harmonious way.

Boonpojanasoontorn and his followers, the atrocities of the Turkish Ontology still fresh in their minds, were fully aware of the many ways in which totalitarian states could misuse their ideas and suggested technological methods of neuro-genetic engineering. The Techno-Ferrarists, as they came to be known, therefore suggested that parents would voluntarily choose to engineer their children, as the same kind of traits that make a person societally harmonious (kindness, fidelity, patience, etcetera) also tend to make that person societally successful. At most, said the Techno-Ferrarists, the state could offer economic incentives to parents, but never force any treatment on anyone. In later years, however, some TEHO theorists have suggested that the process is going too slowly, and that some more direct state intervention is necessary.

Note that, while TEHO initially focused on genetic engineering, they have also embraced the developing technology of Brain-Computer Interfaces as a key step in the man-directed evolution toward mental perfection.
 
I think it's possible, but I think it's going to resemble a "Cult of Reason" type religion than something that's purely about psychology. If you follow one of these, it's going to be your new religion, not be compatable with religion.

Actually, Scientology is a great template for the sort of thing your looking for, but note that it's a religion.
 
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