Whar if Ataturk didn't abolish the caliphate?
- Thread starter Dfront21
- Start date
I wonder if Wahabbists, Salafists, Kutbists, and the like will still rage against it as being decadent and idolatrous, especially since it would still be run by Turks. I don't think they really care about establishing an actual caliphate, so much as they want a fictional utopia to commit violence in the name of. I don't think the fascists really would want a reestablished Rome or Germania; those places weren't exactly big on ethnic purity.
On the flip side, I wonder if even among mainstream non-Turkish Muslims, the caliph would be seen as a puppet of the Kemalists in Ankara, not unlike the Panchen Lama is in the PRC. I wonder if given how secular Turkey is in general, Islam there will get more syncretic and mellow and become something like the Church of England is, (though obviously not as liberal).
On the flip side, I wonder if even among mainstream non-Turkish Muslims, the caliph would be seen as a puppet of the Kemalists in Ankara, not unlike the Panchen Lama is in the PRC. I wonder if given how secular Turkey is in general, Islam there will get more syncretic and mellow and become something like the Church of England is, (though obviously not as liberal).
Why was the Caliphate abolished just because Attaturk said so? The Caliph was for all Islam not just the Turks/Ottoman Empire and surely he could just have set up elsewhere? OK I've basically just repeated the previous thread with the comment about him moving but it still leaves the first part of the question.
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The Caliphate was already a dead letter when the Sultan in that position called for a jihad against the Entente powers and precisely bugger all people took any notice of him. As an institution it only has power either via moral authority or as a reflection of the temporal power of the incumbent, neither of which the Sultan had since even during the war he was pretty much a figurehead and afterwards his Empire was divided between the victors and his throne abolished by his own government. You've also got the problem of Ataturk having precisely zero reason to keep the position around. The Ottoman Empire was run explicitly on Islamic lines of if you were a Muslim and lived with the Empire then you were a citizen regardless of ethnicity. As part of his campaign to decisively break with the old order and build up an explicitly Turkish identity it was in Ataturk's interests to declare a republic and abolish the office of Caliph.
If you want a surviving Caliph then I think your best bet is for someone else to claim the title. Perhaps if Husain ibn Ali as ruler of the Kingdom of Hejaz and his son do better and manage to crush the Saudis, slowly absorbing the rest of what nowadays is Saudi Arabia? They then parlay their title as Emir of Mecca and of Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, a title that was traditionally also held by the Caliph, into being recognised as the new Caliph. Fast forward to 1940s and the discovery of oil allows them to cement their position, or bribe/give out charitable donations to get people to recognise them as Caliph if they haven't already been so.
If you want a surviving Caliph then I think your best bet is for someone else to claim the title. Perhaps if Husain ibn Ali as ruler of the Kingdom of Hejaz and his son do better and manage to crush the Saudis, slowly absorbing the rest of what nowadays is Saudi Arabia? They then parlay their title as Emir of Mecca and of Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, a title that was traditionally also held by the Caliph, into being recognised as the new Caliph. Fast forward to 1940s and the discovery of oil allows them to cement their position, or bribe/give out charitable donations to get people to recognise them as Caliph if they haven't already been so.
Assuming that we don't have a new Caliph and it's still the deposed and exiled Abdulmecid II would he really want to go to Egypt? It's country that until shortly beforehand he was still claiming as a part of his Empire, albeit with broad internal autonomy, until it declared independence from and war against him and is in reality pretty much a colony of a western country he was also just at war with. I'm not sure how warm of a reception he'd likely receive. There's also the question of precisely why would the local jurists and scholars give a fig for who he is, as recent events have shown he's certainly not being favoured by Allah and they've been getting on perfectly fine before he showed up and possibly started cramping their style.
Oh, right, I forgot. Caliph is less analogous to pope/lama, than it is to Holy Roman Emperor.
What are the rules for declaring a caliphate, anyway? What's to stop Indonesia from going, "You know what, my Nizar's? We've got the most populous Muslim nation on Earth, let's do this Shiite, bitches. Bishmillah!" and then they team up with Malaysia and Mindanao have their own SE Asian caliphate and it's more liberal than the Ottomans were and all the Arabs are jealous as eff.
Among Sunnis, whoever gains the political authority as leader of the entire Islamic Ummah becomes caliph (it's not written in the Koran, but has gained credence in Islamic scholarship). Among Shia, the Caliph *must* be descended from the bloodline of Imam Ali. Islam is rather big on the faithful as a group entity.
Ironically Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan is accused by his critics (and by Bashar Assad) of being a wannabe caliph.
Hussein, the Hashemite Sharif of Mecca, tried to claim the title for himself, but was ignored. After he abdicated, his son didn't press the title.
Before someone suggests that the Caliph go somewhere else and try to continue on, he had lost all credibility by collaborating with the Allies after WWI ended.
Before someone suggests that the Caliph go somewhere else and try to continue on, he had lost all credibility by collaborating with the Allies after WWI ended.
That's part of it. Another part is that Caliphs are far more restrained in their spiritual powers than, say, the Catholic Pope. So it's not like Islam is in a great crisis without a Caliph.
It is speculated that during the Turkish independence war, Abdulmejid II, the last caliph (he was Crown Prince then) thought to move to Ankara. He hesitated first and then it was too late as Ankara government was winning the war. If he had moved at the correct time, I believe the caliphate and Ottoman Empire would survive.
So it would basically be an Ottoman Empire made up of Turkey and... well that's it really. Not exactly very impressive for an Empire. Even if Abdulmecid II was somehow able to win still doesn't change the fact that he's got no real authority in the Muslim world any more so no-one would listen to him.
Dirk_Pitt
Banned
So it would basically be an Ottoman Empire made up of Turkey and... well that's it really. Not exactly very impressive for an Empire. Even if Abdulmecid II was somehow able to win still doesn't change the fact that he's got no real authority in the Muslim world any more so no-one would listen to him.
The Byzantine Empire wasn't made up of much than that for quite a while... In fact it was smaller.
So you're saying that there's no real significance to a SE Asian caliphate, even done for troll reasons?
Saudi Arabia might cut down on Indonesia's oil imports in protest. Maybe. They might just not care enough to slow the flow of that delicious oil money and maids.
I think se asia is in the same position as the middle east: being dominated by foreign powers. So, a caliph will probably have just as little legitimacy.
Indonesia has oil- that's why Imperial Japan attacked the Dutch East Indies, right? Adding to the hilarious stereotype that somehow, Muslims of every continent and culture has access to oil.
Also what? SE Asia isn't getting particularly dominated right now. By whom? China? India? Australia?
Also what? SE Asia isn't getting particularly dominated right now. By whom? China? India? Australia?
Cook
Banned
I wasn’t aware that Saudi Arabia was importing oil from Indonesia; in any case, Indonesia would have no difficulty finding other markets for its oil exports if the Saudis were unwilling or unable to continue buying.
For those who don’t know, Indonesia is a major oil exporter as well as the eighth largest exporter of liquefied natural gas in the world. The fall of President Suharto was prompted by a S.E. Asian economic crisis caused by a significant drop in the price of oil on the world market in the mid-1990s.