Was the legion really that superior to the phalanx?

So this gets thrown around a lot without really being put up to scrutiny, and I feel it's an incorrect assumption. The argument that the phalanx was inferior to the legion naturally, is one that stems from the incredibly Pro-Roman Polybius. He was obviously heavily biased, but since I think going down that route to prove that the phalanx was not as inferior as believed would not be necessary.

Anyway, I have never completely bought into the narrative that the Macedonian pike phalanx was necessarily "inferior" to the Roman Legions, although it certainly was less flexible and adaptable. Pyrrhus was able to defeat the legions with his phalanx (and crucially, he valued the importance of cavalry), despite his losses. Still, this was not an evenly numbered battle on neutral terrain, so it is hard to take anything away from this of the superiority of either force.


At both Cynoscephylae (spelling?) and Pydna, the phalanxes were caught on terrain that was highly unfavorable to that style of warfare (and which would have been unfavorable for ANY close order battle line). This is in part due to the inferior generalship of both Phillip and Perseus, of which I will return to later. At the first of these battles, the Romans nevertheless had a hard time before they managed to turn the Macedonian phalanx and attack it in the flank, which is telling.




However, it should be remembered that the pike phalanx was only one part of the Philip/Alexander combination of strike and shock tactics and its role was to play the anvil to the other components' (cavalry and allied/light infantry) hammer. They were only supposed to hold the enemy in check, while the main striking component did their work. This didn't happen when the Antigonid Kings (Philip V and Perseus) opposed the Romans. According to some historians, it was because Macedonian cavalry had deteriorated in quality since Alexander (or because they had reverted to the skirmishing role that Greeks gave to cavalry) as opposed to playing the role of shock troops that Philip and Alexander had designed for them. Regardless, the key here was that the main striking components that made the Macedonian army so formiddable, were clearly lacking. The flanks were thus also as a result, not secure, which jeopardized the whole point of the phalanx to begin with.

Yet this cannot be explained for all the encounters. At Thermopylae, Antiochus III had been forced into defending the pass at a huge disadvantage in numbers, due to a miscalculation on his part on how the Romans would react to his invasion. Even then, the phalanx was completely successful in holding the Romans off, and it was only when the flying column lead by Cato skirted around the moutain pass and surprised the Aetolians forcing them to flee from their role of protecting said passes, that Antiochus was forced to execute a hasty withdraw before being completely encircled.

Antiochus however, used the phalanx exactly as intended during most of his other campaigns, including Magnesia. The cataphract cavalry was used as the heavy cavalry striking force, while the phalanx was to play the anvil. Antiochus was able to completely obliderate a whole flank of the Romans with his cavalry strike, but failed to capitalize on it and wrap up the Roman flank. It was his poor use of the scythe chariots on the other flank, and terrible placement of elephants that caused his cavalry on said wing and phalanx (which was holding their own) to become scattered and displaced by the panic of the elephants and chariots. Even then, the phalanx managed an orderly and fighting withdrawal, and the battle was not a complete walkover.

The phalanx, when used correctly at Magnesia proved to be more than a match for the Roman legions and it was only through screw ups in deployment and executed (i.e. not turning his cavalry to wrap up the Roman flank) the Roman army was not annihilated.

Another gross simplification - or even a mistake - is to state that the Macedonian phalanx was widely adopted and employed across the Mediterranean but that, as a modified version of the earlier hoplite phalanx, it was fatally flawed because it was rigid.

The first part of the statement is incorrect. Neither Carthage, nor Syracuse, for instance, seem to have ever adopted a Macedonian pike-style phalanx. The Spartans and the Achaian Ligue did, but only during the second half of the third century. Instead, they stuck to a hoplite style phalanx. It seems that it was with such an order of battle that Hannibal was able to smash the Romans repeatedly before being defeated by them at Zama. It is also with a hoplite phalanx that Xanthippos, the Spartan mercenary general, destroyed the Roman legions of Regulus at Bagradas in 255 BCE. The point here is that statements to the effect that the Roman organization was so superior simply do not stand up to the facts.

Second, it should also be remembered that the Roman order of battle was itself an evolution from the hoplite phalanx. Originally, the term legion meant a levy of troops, not a specific type of organization.

Third, warfare during the Hellenistic period was more innovative that what is often suggested. For instance, and as the Romans were themselves making their hoplite-style army evolve, Greek and Hellenistic states also made a number of experiences (increasing role of light infantry such as peltasts, introduction of the thureoi, a medium infantry type between a hoplite and a peltast) that were all targeted to introduce more flexibility in the line of battle.

Even the statement that a pike phalanx was more complex to operate and therefore needed, on average, a more talented general than for a legion needs discussing. It is however a bit of a simplification (and even a caricature or a Pro-Roman stereotype) to oppose the rigid phalanx to the flexible legion. The main difference between these two evolutions from the hoplitic phalanx seems to be that while the Macedonian pike phalanx became a core part of an integrated battle force, along with shock cavalry and skirmishing light cavalry and infantry, the Romans still put all the emphasis on heavy infantry. While the Hellenistic system was more sophisticated, it was also more difficult to handle in a fully effective way.



Another gross simplification - or even a mistake - is to state that the Macedonian phalanx was widely adopted and employed across the Mediterranean but that, as a modified version of the earlier hoplite phalanx, it was fatally flawed because it was rigid.

The first part of the statement is incorrect. Neither Carthage, nor Syracuse, for instance, seem to have ever adopted a Macedonian pike-style phalanx. The Spartans and the Achaian Ligue did, but only during the second half of the third century. Instead, they stuck to a hoplite style phalanx. It seems that it was with such an order of battle that Hannibal was able to smash the Romans repeatedly before being defeated by them at Zama. It is also with a hoplite phalanx that Xanthippos, the Spartan mercenary general, destroyed the Roman legions of Regulus at Bagradas in 255 BCE. The point here is that statements to the effect that the Roman organization was so superior simply do not stand up to the facts.

Second, it should also be remembered that the Roman order of battle was itself an evolution from the hoplite phalanx. Originally, the term legion meant a levy of troops, not a specific type of organization.

Third, warfare during the Hellenistic period was more innovative that what is often suggested. For instance, and as the Romans were themselves making their hoplite-style army evolve, Greek and Hellenistic states also made a number of experiences (increasing role of light infantry such as peltasts, introduction of the thureoi, a medium infantry type between a hoplite and a peltast) that were all targeted to introduce more flexibility in the line of battle.

Even the statement that a pike phalanx was more complex to operate and therefore needed, on average, a more talented general than for a legion needs discussing. It is however a bit of a simplification (and even a caricature or a Pro-Roman stereotype) to oppose the rigid phalanx to the flexible legion. The main difference between these two evolutions from the hoplitic phalanx seems to be that while the Macedonian pike phalanx became a core part of an integrated battle force, along with shock cavalry and skirmishing light cavalry and infantry, the Romans still put all the emphasis on heavy infantry. While the Hellenistic system was more sophisticated, it was also more difficult to handle in a fully effective way
 
Not sure at which battle it was but phanlangists lowered their spears and held them against legionary shields. Romans couldn't advance (not strong enough) nor do anything (too far away). IIRC they were even forced back but uneven ground ment phalanx didn't advance in line but some parts went faster than others. As line became uneven romans were able to strike at these exposed bulges, thus smashing the line and as such winning the battle.
 
Not sure at which battle it was but phanlangists lowered their spears and held them against legionary shields. Romans couldn't advance (not strong enough) nor do anything (too far away). IIRC they were even forced back but uneven ground ment phalanx didn't advance in line but some parts went faster than others. As line became uneven romans were able to strike at these exposed bulges, thus smashing the line and as such winning the battle.

It sounds almost like all battles against the phalanx the Romans encountered. It was the case at Magnesia as well, but I think you are referring to Cynoscephylae.
 
Not sure at which battle it was but phanlangists lowered their spears and held them against legionary shields. Romans couldn't advance (not strong enough) nor do anything (too far away). IIRC they were even forced back but uneven ground ment phalanx didn't advance in line but some parts went faster than others. As line became uneven romans were able to strike at these exposed bulges, thus smashing the line and as such winning the battle.

Broken ground was a factor in both the Macedonian defeats at the Battles of Cynoscephalae and Pydna against the Romans.

It may be true that innovations had continued in Macedonian battle formations, specifically in the Macedonian phalanx and refining combined arms but they definitely seemed to have issues in making the machine click together right. Particularly when it really counted.
 
Anyway, I have never completely bought into the narrative that the Macedonian pike phalanx was necessarily "inferior" to the Roman Legions, although it certainly was less flexible and adaptable. Pyrrhus was able to defeat the legions with his phalanx (and crucially, he valued the importance of cavalry), despite his losses. Still, this was not an evenly numbered battle on neutral terrain, so it is hard to take anything away from this of the superiority of either force.

1: Being less flexible and adaptable is the reason for the claim that the legion's historical formation was superior to the phalanx. Arguing that it wasn't necessarily inferior despite this is like arguing that the Pennsylvania Rifle of the American Revolution wasn't inferior to the musket other than taking longer to reload and being unable to mount a bayonet.

At both Cynoscephylae (spelling?) and Pydna, the phalanxes were caught on terrain that was highly unfavorable to that style of warfare (and which would have been unfavorable for ANY close order battle line). This is in part due to the inferior generalship of both Phillip and Perseus, of which I will return to later. At the first of these battles, the Romans nevertheless had a hard time before they managed to turn the Macedonian phalanx and attack it in the flank, which is telling.

And that they were able to take it in flank, and that the phalanx was not able to respond effectively, is a good example of the phalanx's fatal flaw.

Meanwhile, being limited in what areas your formation can fight in effectively is - again - another point against the formation more seriously compromised by that factor.

The flanks were thus also as a result, not secure, which jeopardized the whole point of the phalanx to begin with.

So the phalanx was unable to secure its own flanks. And this is not a drawback?

The phalanx, when used correctly at Magnesia proved to be more than a match for the Roman legions and it was only through screw ups in deployment and executed (i.e. not turning his cavalry to wrap up the Roman flank) the Roman army was not annihilated.

That (bold) is not proof of the strengths of the phalanx vs. the legion, that's proof of a combined arms force having advantage over a force imbalanced in favor of one arm.

Another gross simplification - or even a mistake - is to state that the Macedonian phalanx was widely adopted and employed across the Mediterranean but that, as a modified version of the earlier hoplite phalanx, it was fatally flawed because it was rigid.

The first part of the statement is incorrect. Neither Carthage, nor Syracuse, for instance, seem to have ever adopted a Macedonian pike-style phalanx. The Spartans and the Achaian Ligue did, but only during the second half of the third century. Instead, they stuck to a hoplite style phalanx. It seems that it was with such an order of battle that Hannibal was able to smash the Romans repeatedly before being defeated by them at Zama.
Hannibal had the more than slight assistance of having superior cavalry and generalship - taking the infantry on its own, even with Varro's terrible misdeployment of his legions, Hannibal's troops were not winning the battle at Cannae - to pick his most famous victory.

This is no more proof of the effectiveness of the phalanx vs. the legion than Magnesia. It is the phalanx and cavalry vs. essentially the legion alone.
 
I think you are misunderstanding me Elfwine. I am saying the phalanx when used as it was supposed to be used (i.e. with an adequate striking force such as cavalry and lighter more mobile infantry on the flanks), then it is not inferior to the Roman infantry. Maybe I should have said the hellenistic style of warfare when used properly was not inferior.
 
I think you are misunderstanding me Elfwine. I am saying the phalanx when used as it was supposed to be used (i.e. with an adequate striking force such as cavalry and lighter more mobile infantry on the flanks), then it is not inferior to the Roman infantry. Maybe I should have said the hellenistic style of warfare when used properly was not inferior.

Those are two different arguments, though.

I would fully agree that properly used the Hellenistic style of warfare was capable of matching the Roman style and possibly better (ignoring issues like Rome cranking out more legions and stuff, since that's more the social-political side of things than purely military), but the phalanx being good in the context of combined arms is not proof of how well it stood up to the legion, regiment (for want of a better generic term) to regiment.
 
One thing I wonder, does hellenistic style warfare require better generals than roman style warfare to be used properly?

Bassically provided you have two skilled generals, it can do very well against the romans, but if you have two mediocre generals fighting, it might be more difficult and it might be easier for the roman general to do better with the roman legion.

I am not stating it, just curious on your views.
 
I think you are misunderstanding me Elfwine. I am saying the phalanx when used as it was supposed to be used (i.e. with an adequate striking force such as cavalry and lighter more mobile infantry on the flanks), then it is not inferior to the Roman infantry. Maybe I should have said the hellenistic style of warfare when used properly was not inferior.

'When used properly' is one hell of a caveat there. The inherent limits to how and where a phalanx could be properly used are much greater than a Roman legion.
 
'When used properly' is one hell of a caveat there. The inherent limits to how and where a phalanx could be properly used are much greater than a Roman legion.

Yeah, it's a lot harder for a less-than-great commander to screw up with a legion.

Still possible of course, one need only ask old Crassus.
 
One thing I wonder, does hellenistic style warfare require better generals than roman style warfare to be used properly?

Bassically provided you have two skilled generals, it can do very well against the romans, but if you have two mediocre generals fighting, it might be more difficult and it might be easier for the roman general to do better with the roman legion.

I am not stating it, just curious on your views.

I would think so though not as a rule. Just going off the fact that the roman legions were lead plenty of times successfully by en with little to no military experience and being more decentralized I think shows it may have been generally easier to manage effectively.
 
I don't know about historical accuracy. But when I play legions vs phalanx on the computer, it's pretty obvious why the phalanx became obsolete. The Romans pull double duty as missile troops who are also well armored for close combat.

In the opening phase of the battle they can use their greater mobility to seize advantageous terrain. Given equal numbers the Romans can spread themselves thin and wrap around both flanks engaging with volleys of pilum before they even close in. The more flexible Roman formation can disengage at will when the going gets tough.

The firepower and mobility of the Roman legion was a great innovation. The phalanx was essentially identical to the 15th century Swiss pike square. Their dominance ended when the Spanish introduced the arquebus. The Roman pilum volleys were less effective but had a similar effect.
 
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My perspective is that the phalanx was not by itself inferior to the Roman legion, but rather poorly used and trained. One can consider the advent of pike squares (quite similar qualitatively to the ancient phalanx) starting in the 15th century, which quickly grew to dominate European battlefields. The points that I'd like to note from this analogy are as follows:

- The Swiss were especially famous for their aggressive use of pike squares, which were capable of stunning tactical victories and remained essentially undefeated until they could be immobilized and rendered vulnerable to enemy firearms (Marignano, Bicocca, etc.) Notably, Switzerland is far from flat open territory, which makes me doubt that pike formations were intrinsically vulnerable to broken up territory, if properly trained, drilled, and used (one can also consider that the early victories of the phalanx occurred in Illyria and Thrace - mountainous/hilly/wooded country.)

- The main vulnerability to tight-packed pike formations in Medieval Europe was generally enemy missile units - guns and possibly crossbows served this function. But there was no real equivalent in the ancient world to the firearm, however; bowmen were less skilled, few in number, and/or required long training. Javelin-armed troops face a disadvantage of a much shorter range and smaller ammunition - making them vulnerable to a sudden pike charge, or enemy bowmen.

- Medieval battles analogous to phalanx vs. legion occurred occasionally when pike formations faced off against Spanish Rodeleros, units armed with side-swords and shields, intended as a revival of the legionary swordsmen. For instance at the battle of Ravenna, the Rodeleros were able to engage disordered landsknecht pike units (generally considered of poorer quality than the Swiss) and inflict massive casualties, reminiscent of Pydna or Cynoscephalae. But when facing against more disciplined and better ordered pike units, they failed utterly - at Seminara, for instance, 800 Swiss pikemen simply rolled over 1500 Rodeleros. Importantly, the Spanish eventually reformed their army to center around pikemen as well (the famous tercios.) Notably, there don't seem to be any successful attempts to reintroduce sword-armed units after the advent of tercio-esque pike-and-shot formations.

So, what I'd conclude from this is that pike units are at least the equal of sword units, all thing being equal.
 

tuareg109

Banned
Well the Romans were known for adapting everything useful and innovative into every sphere of their society; thus the Samnite-influenced Manipular Legion replacing the Greek-style hoplite phalanx of the Kingdom and Early Republic.

This ipso facto shows that the Legion was a superior formation--for the Romans' purpose. Seleucus makes a great point that the phalanx is superior in ravine-like territory; additionally, the Legions had to be replaced by a medieval-style army heavily relying on heavy cavalry after contact with the East.

This shows that, from the third century BC on, the Legion was superior for most of a formations purposes; after the fourth century AD, its usefulness fell.
 
Hannibal had the more than slight assistance of having superior cavalry and generalship - taking the infantry on its own, even with Varro's terrible misdeployment of his legions, Hannibal's troops were not winning the battle at Cannae - to pick his most famous victory.
And about Cannae, most of Hannibal's infantry then were Gallic and Hispanic swordsmen, the former is very reason the Rome abandoned the rigid Phalanx for good, they can easily flank any rigid formation, side from that, they are unpredictable and deceptive, as shown in Cannae.
 
- The main vulnerability to tight-packed pike formations in Medieval Europe was generally enemy missile units - guns and possibly crossbows served this function. But there was no real equivalent in the ancient world to the firearm, however; bowmen were less skilled, few in number, and/or required long training. Javelin-armed troops face a disadvantage of a much shorter range and smaller ammunition - making them vulnerable to a sudden pike charge, or enemy bowmen.

Not necessarily. Guns and crossbows were slow to reload. Pilums can be throw as rapidly as the rear line can pass more pilums to the throwers in front of them. Roman pilums were purpose designed to penetrate the armor of their day. They could also disable shields when their trips bent after penetration.

When you combine the pilum with well armored swordsmen who can quickly form up with overlapping shields, you have a unit tailor made for cracking a phalanx. The reason the phalanx came back in the form of pike squares is the threat of heavy cavalry. And I would say Swiss plate armor probably offered better protection against arrows and crossbow bolts than linothorax and shield vs pilum.
 
I guess the roman system, which they adopted from the Samnites, when they were forced to fight in mountaneous regions, was just more flexible and versatile. This also includes flexibility in combination with other forces. The romans could even fight "phalanx-style". I don't refer to Caracallas unsuccessful experiment with a real macedonian phalanx. Just look at Arrians Battle against the Alans or other battles against Sarmates and Parthians.

That means, that a roman exercitus could perform greatly in terrains, where the phalanx had issues. I use the term exercitus, because we always talk about combined forces and never about a single legion. A legion was just an organizational and administrational unit, not a tactical or strategic one. Legions never fought, just armies (exercitus) fought, or units smaller than a legion (cohort/ala, vexillatio, numerus).

On the other hand, with a perfect greek formation (combined forces), a good greek general and a good terrain, the legions have hard times against a macedonian phalanx. Longterm, i guess the legions will win, because the romans will catch phalanxes too often in unfavourable positions.

Well, we can discuss about better training of roman legionairs compared to greek mercenaries and such. But do we really know?
 
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I don't know about historical accuracy. But when I play legions vs phalanx on the computer, it's pretty obvious why the phalanx became obsolete. The Romans pull double duty as missile troops who are also well armored for close combat.

In the opening phase of the battle they can use their greater mobility to seize advantageous terrain. Given equal numbers the Romans can spread themselves thin and wrap around both flanks engaging with volleys of pilum before they even close in. The more flexible Roman formation can disengage at will when the going gets tough.

Well the phalanx was designed as a giant mass of pikes spread out in a long line precisely to make it harder to outflank it. That isn't really portrayed well at all in games like RTW or RTW2 simply because of the unit scale. The Romans IIRC, only carried 1 and at sometimes 2 pila, and only for the first few lines IIRC. Plus, the position of the spears (the back lines going up at an angle) were that way purposely to deflect misiles.

From the front, the phalanx was impenetrable and the Romans never managed to ever break through the phalanx from the front. Anytime the hellenistic armies had a sufficient cavalry arm, the Romans were in big trouble-with Pyrrhus and with Antiochus The Great namely.
 
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