Civil Jets

If someone has done this before just tell me and I'll stop. What if
1. The VC7/V1000 was fully developed
2. Someone at de Havilland had a brainwave and the Comet1 produced was actually what was the Comet4 in OTL.
Would the Americans have had a run for their money with regards to passenger jets or was it foreordained that Boeing would rule the skies?
PS would the VC10 be butterflied away/not developed (depending on your definition of butterfly)
 
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Having engines buried in the wings is not maintenance-friendly, compared to them being slung under like the 707 and DC-8.
 
2. Someone at de Havilland had a brainwave and the Comet 1 produced was actually what was the Comet 4 in OTL.
IIRC the version of events I've heard was that de Havilland wanted to use one of their own engine designs rather than a more powerful alternative Rolls-Royce one, but it wouldn't have been able to meet the performance figures requested so they decided to use a thinner gauge metal skin to compensate. They also for some reason used punch riveting in the construction rather than the stronger drill riveting and gluing that was specified in the original design. This led to some rather alarming things happening to one of the early models putting on a display at one of the air shows such as loud bangs being heard in the cockpit from the skin flexing announcing whenever they reached a certain speed or part of the cockpit floor bulging if they turned above a certain rate.

If you want things to go better simply have BOAC find out about this, say from having one of their people go along on a test flight, and put their foot down insisting that de Havilland build them exactly to the original specification or they won't be buying any. The short delay whilst they go back to a thicker gauge should hopefully allow the Rolls-Royce engine to be ready by then and as an added bonus would mean that drill riveting and glue were used in the construction, also possibly rounded windows as well. Now I think jumping straight to the Comet 4 is probably rather too optimistic but this would get you to the Comet 2 straight from the off and avoid the crashes which so sullied the company's and aircraft's name internationally. You'll still likely get crashes but de Havilland's competitors such as Boeing and Douglas won't be able to use their second mover advantage to fix their aircraft in light of the data on stress concentration that came out of the air crash investigations so it will instead be much more of a level playing field. Alas it was not to be however.


Would the Americans have had a run for their money with regards to passenger jets or was it foreordained that Boeing would rule the skies?
It certainly wasn't foreordained but they did have a couple of in-built advantages over their British competitors. As a private company building airliners for mostly private airlines they were able to do their research, come up with what they thought would be the best product for their customers - not always what their customers thought they wanted at the time, and then put their money where their mouth was by using their money to develop and build it.

In the UK the government owned the two main airlines in the form of BOAC and BEA which had a monopoly plus funded a fair amount of research by both the aircraft manufacturers and the engine manufacturers. This meant that whilst BOAC and BEA as crown corporations were meant to be run as businesses with independence from the government they still had a large influence, likewise with the aerospace companies. One of the results of this was that many of the funded airliners were designed and built specifically for BOAC or BEA, meaning that they often became far too specialised for what they wanted making them unattractive to other airline companies around the world or if they got cold feet they could and did demand changes to the designs. The classic example being the de Havilland DH.121 Trident where after getting a design that looked to be a major step forward almost mirroring the later Boeing 727 and have real sales potential, Pan Am in the US were apparently very keen, BEA then got cold feet after looking at a couple of years previous traffic levels, Boeing rightly judged that it was just a blip, and requested a smaller version with fewer seats and less powerful engines. This eventually left them with a less capable aircraft, Pan Am lost all interest, and Boeing cleaned up with their 727. It gets even worse as five or six years later when BEA then decided to look at larger aircraft under the 'Airbus' development title Hawker Siddeley, who had taken over de Havilland, proposed a development of the Trident called the HS.134 that looked incredibly similar to the Boeing 757 that came along fifteen years later, but due to the government signing an agreement to develop the Hawker Siddeley HBN.100 with the French and German governments the project was shelved. The 'Airbus' would of course go on the become the Airbus A300 but due to disagreements by that point the British government had withdrawn so managing to shoot themselves in both feet.

Basically what I'm saying is that whilst the airlines and aerospace companies benefited from government support they were also held back by the associated government influence and might well have been better off operating on their own. Now if several things such as the Comet not keeping crashing, the VC7/1000 being developed or the DH.121 Trident going ahead in its original design then we could have seen a number of changes cascading on from these events. Getting these things to happen is the hard part. I'll stop rambling now. :)


Having engines buried in the wings is not maintenance-friendly, compared to them being slung under like the 707 and DC-8.
True, however it is much better aerodynamically I've been led to believe. And when dealing with the early turbojet designs of the period which were underpowered compared to later models that could be important. Podded engines were definitely the way of the future so if the Comet was able to stay a success then I'd certainly expect to see them moving to that on future models.
 

Sior

Banned

The Avro C102 Jetliner was a Canadian prototype medium-range jet airliner built by Avro Canada in 1949. It was beaten to the air by only 13 days by the de Havilland Comet, thereby becoming the second jet airliner in the world. In Canada and the United States the term "Jetliner" has often been used to refer to any jet airliner since then. The aircraft was considered suitable for busy routes along the US eastern seaboard and garnered intense interest, notably from Howard Hughes who even offered to start production under license. However continued delays in Avro's all-weather interceptor project, the Avro CF-100, led to an order to stop working on the project in 1951, with the prototype Jetliner later cut up for scrap.
 
The DH118 follow on from the Comet 5 had its 4 Conways in two pods underneath the wing but not on pylons.

Anyone know how aerodynamics of that arrangement compare to that with engines on pylons.

 

The Avro C102 Jetliner was a Canadian prototype medium-range jet airliner built by Avro Canada in 1949. It was beaten to the air by only 13 days by the de Havilland Comet, thereby becoming the second jet airliner in the world. In Canada and the United States the term "Jetliner" has often been used to refer to any jet airliner since then. The aircraft was considered suitable for busy routes along the US eastern seaboard and garnered intense interest, notably from Howard Hughes who even offered to start production under license. However continued delays in Avro's all-weather interceptor project, the Avro CF-100, led to an order to stop working on the project in 1951, with the prototype Jetliner later cut up for scrap.
Sorry I forgot about this one. If the CF100 had been on time (or at least more so than it was!)would it have been developed? Could Avro Canada built this,the Canuck and developed the Arrow even if Hughes had built it under license?
 
The DH.118 follow on from the Comet 5 had its 4 Conways in two pods underneath the wing but not on pylons.

Anyone know how aerodynamics of that arrangement compare to that with engines on pylons?

[SNIP Image]
Huh, that's a new one on me. I always assumed that they would have gone for the 'standard' podded option. No idea on the aerodynamics of it unfortunately, might be better off asking over on the Secret Projects forum.
 
Huh, that's a new one on me. I always assumed that they would have gone for the 'standard' podded option. No idea on the aerodynamics of it unfortunately, might be better off asking over on the Secret Projects forum.
It was for me too. However I found it in "Stuck on the Drawing Board"by Richard Payne pp46 and 48.
Also why are podded engines better than engines at the back such as the VC10 and Il62?
 
Huh, that's a new one on me. I always assumed that they would have gone for the 'standard' podded option. No idea on the aerodynamics of it unfortunately, might be better off asking over on the Secret Projects forum.

Its from Richard Payne's 'Stuck on the Drawing Board'.........more or less the commercial equivalent of the BSP series.

Read it and be annoyed, be very annoyed.
 
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IIRC the version of events I've heard was that de Havilland wanted to use one of their own engine designs rather than a more powerful alternative Rolls-Royce one, but it wouldn't have been able to meet the performance figures requested so they decided to use a thinner gauge metal skin to compensate. They also for some reason used punch riveting in the construction rather than the stronger drill riveting and gluing that was specified in the original design. This led to some rather alarming things happening to one of the early models putting on a display at one of the air shows such as loud bangs being heard in the cockpit from the skin flexing announcing whenever they reached a certain speed or part of the cockpit floor bulging if they turned above a certain rate.

If you want things to go better simply have BOAC find out about this, say from having one of their people go along on a test flight, and put their foot down insisting that de Havilland build them exactly to the original specification or they won't be buying any. The short delay whilst they go back to a thicker gauge should hopefully allow the Rolls-Royce engine to be ready by then and as an added bonus would mean that drill riveting and glue were used in the construction, also possibly rounded windows as well. Now I think jumping straight to the Comet 4 is probably rather too optimistic but this would get you to the Comet 2 straight from the off and avoid the crashes which so sullied the company's and aircraft's name internationally. You'll still likely get crashes but de Havilland's competitors such as Boeing and Douglas won't be able to use their second mover advantage to fix their aircraft in light of the data on stress concentration that came out of the air crash investigations so it will instead be much more of a level playing field. Alas it was not to be however.

This is the reason why Boeing and Airbus don't make engines and Rolls-Royce, GE and Pratt and Whitney don't make airframes, De Havilland were trying to build up their engine business and they got greedy. IIRC in Empire of the Clouds it's argued that they were the wrong company to develop a jetliner as they made primarily been a builder of light aircraft and had a reputation for trying to "push the boundaries," one of the traditional heavy aircraft makers, say Vickers, who apparently had the most experience with pressurised airframes would have been a better choice.

You are correct that given the prevailing attitudes in government and industry its difficult to come up with a scenario in which this could happen, but with a bit of handwavium, post war the Government insists on a general consolidation of the aircraft industry, using Vickers and Hawker-Siddeley as "pillars," De Havilland is bought by Vickers and with their expertise the Comet's flaws are identified. The aircraft is redesigned delaying its introduction by 18 months, however it proves successful in service with some 300 airframes built over its production life. The experience gained with the Comet feeds into the VC-7 project which also proves to be an export success leading to the development of a full family of aircraft including the Trident (VC-8?) Obviously the Americans have a huge advantage in terms of their domestic market but with the greater success of British aircraft BOAC and BEA are more enthusiastic about British aircraft and European airlines follow suit. Discussions on a Pan European aircraft programme begin in the early 1960's and result in a version of Airbus except that final assembly is in Hatfield and Weybridge instead of Toulouse and Hamburg.
 
Some aircraft seem timeless, like this last DH design, which may win awards for the most names of any design.

Had BEA not dithered on the Trident specs, there might have been no R-R Spey turbofan. There would have been something bigger, with more power.

The JT8D installation under the Boeing 737 wasn't pod-mounted on a pylon, although that's changed now.

0747625.jpg
 
Had BEA not dithered on the Trident specs, there might have been no R-R Spey turbofan. There would have been something bigger, with more power.
IIRC the Spey was pretty much a scaled down version of the Medway that they had been intending to use. If the Medway goes ahead it could have some interesting knock-ons since they apparently spent quite a bit of money on developing it so if it enters service then they should be able to at least make their development costs back. So whilst the RB211 still looms large in the future if they're on a better footing financially going in they might just be able to avoid effectively going bankrupt and having to be nationalised, alternatively they might simply have more money on hand to spend before going that way anyway. I still think that we're likely to see a Spey-like engine appear - it's needed for the aircraft like the Buccaneer or F-4K and with an already working Conway I could see Rolls-Royce leveraging that to offer a scaled-down version, whether it would be roughly the same or better I couldn't say.
 
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