Surviving Commonwealth planning thread

So basically, this started when I saw some alternate propaganda posters made by Xibalba in the alternate world propaganda thread which all took place in a world where the British Commonwealth survived into the present day, the POD being that before Oliver Cromwell died he choose a more competent successor than his son Richard. The posters can be seen below.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=8077604&postcount=2038

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=8114558&postcount=2101

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=8281835&postcount=2239

I was fascinated with the idea, so I PM'ed Xibalba about working on a timeline with him about the above world. He agreed that we could work on a TL together, but we both decided it would be best to have a planning thread to working things out first. Not only did he need help with the idea, but so do I, despite the number of ideas I have.

So basically, what ideas do you have for a timeline like this? Here are my ideas;

Charles II lives the rest of his life in exile in France. France later becomes ally of English royalists, and an enemy of the Commonwealth.

The Second and Third Anglo-Dutch Wars are butterflied away

Franco-Dutch war might still happen without England

Nine Years War maybe butterflied away. If it does happen it would be very different than its OTL analog.

Jacobite-esque royalist uprisings occur sometime in the 17th and 18th centuries.

No French Revolution, also Latin American Wars of Independence either never happen or the Latin American nations gain independence much more peacefully and gradually.

This ideas come from the posters themselves;

The Commonwealth remains an autocratic republic, but evolves into a fairly democratic state. After some national loss in the 20th century, the Commonwealth goes fascist, returning to the radicalism of its past. Under the Fascist Commonwealth, a Commonwealth Defense League is establish, and is a sort of SS/KGB analog. France is it still Britain's main enemy, and war between France and a unified Germany occurs in the 20th century.

Ireland rebels in 1953. Whether it was ever independent and later re-annexed by Britain is unclear, but it could be the case.

Here are some questions;

What happens to the American colonies? Could a surviving New Netherlands be a possibility? Or a surviving New Sweden?

Wow does the Commonwealth react to the Great Northern War?

As a bonus, I made this air force roundel for the Commonwealth.

Zoidberg12 said:

So basically, what ideas do you have for a timeline like this? Here are my ideas;

Charles II lives the rest of his life in exile in France. France later becomes ally of English royalists, and an enemy of the Commonwealth.

The Second and Third Anglo-Dutch Wars are butterflied away

Franco-Dutch war might still happen without England

Nine Years War maybe butterflied away. If it does happen it would be very different than its OTL analog.

Jacobite-esque royalist uprisings occur sometime in the 17th and 18th centuries.

No French Revolution, also Latin American Wars of Independence either never happen or the Latin American nations gain independence much more peacefully and gradually.

This ideas come from the posters themselves;

The Commonwealth remains an autocratic republic, but evolves into a fairly democratic state. After some national loss in the 20th century, the Commonwealth goes fascist, returning to the radicalism of its past. Under the Fascist Commonwealth, a Commonwealth Defense League is establish, and is a sort of SS/KGB analog. France is it still Britain's main enemy, and war between France and a unified Germany occurs in the 20th century.

Ireland rebels in 1953. Whether it was ever independent and later re-annexed by Britain is unclear, but it could be the case.

Here are some questions;

What happens to the American colonies? Could a surviving New Netherlands be a possibility? Or a surviving New Sweden?

Wow does the Commonwealth react to the Great Northern War?

Click to expand...

Yup, it's clear, Fall 2013 is the season of the 17th century Britain storylines...I swear.

In any case, here are my thoughts:

For the most part, yeah, I'm pretty much on the boat of the Stuarts ending up becoming more or less Royals in exile in France for the rest of their natural lifetime, maybe it'll even go as far as putting a Bourbon on the English throne...you think I'm crazy for thinking that?

The butterfly of the Second and Third Dutch Waris indeed possible, one of the issues was that the House of Orange supported the English Monarchy, which was opposed by the Dutch Republicans, led by Johan de Witt. However the problem revolves around the rivalry between the English and Dutch Trading Companies in the Americas and I think West Africa. Resolve that, and you would have your wars gone for good.

Franco-Dutch War is still possible, though without England is pretty hard to do. On one hand, if said problems with the Dutch persist then there would be a reason not to help the Dutch, on the other hand, a French victory would increase the chance of an Orangist restoration in the Netherlands, and quite likely, put England under a similar situation with the Stuarts.

Different or No Nine Years War is also likely, as would the Jacobite Rebellion bit. No French Revolution and Latin American Wars is also possible, given the distance from the PoD. But my question on the latter is, how would they develop?

With a surviving Commonwealth, New Netherlands and New Sweden is a possibility, but even then, New Sweden is sparsely populated, and wound up being taken over by New Netherlands anyway.

As for the Great Northern War, well assuming if it does happen...I dunno. England supported Sweden during the Protectorate, but I dunno how long it will last with Sweden's virtual control of the entire Baltic.

My other thoughts:
So France and England will virtually be eternal foes, but what of England's other major enemy, Hapsburg Spain?

Finally, I dunno about that roundel, the coat of arms in the middle look a bit off center IMHO.

Bumping this. No one else?

One thing I forgot to ask, who are some potential alternate candidates to succeed Oliver Cromwell as Lord Protector other an his son Richard?

Razgriz 2K9 said:

Yup, it's clear, Fall 2013 is the season of the 17th century Britain storylines...I swear.

In any case, here are my thoughts:

For the most part, yeah, I'm pretty much on the boat of the Stuarts ending up becoming more or less Royals in exile in France for the rest of their natural lifetime, maybe it'll even go as far as putting a Bourbon on the English throne...you think I'm crazy for thinking that?

The butterfly of the Second and Third Dutch Waris indeed possible, one of the issues was that the House of Orange supported the English Monarchy, which was opposed by the Dutch Republicans, led by Johan de Witt. However the problem revolves around the rivalry between the English and Dutch Trading Companies in the Americas and I think West Africa. Resolve that, and you would have your wars gone for good.

Franco-Dutch War is still possible, though without England is pretty hard to do. On one hand, if said problems with the Dutch persist then there would be a reason not to help the Dutch, on the other hand, a French victory would increase the chance of an Orangist restoration in the Netherlands, and quite likely, put England under a similar situation with the Stuarts.

Different or No Nine Years War is also likely, as would the Jacobite Rebellion bit. No French Revolution and Latin American Wars is also possible, given the distance from the PoD. But my question on the latter is, how would they develop?

With a surviving Commonwealth, New Netherlands and New Sweden is a possibility, but even then, New Sweden is sparsely populated, and wound up being taken over by New Netherlands anyway.

As for the Great Northern War, well assuming if it does happen...I dunno. England supported Sweden during the Protectorate, but I dunno how long it will last with Sweden's virtual control of the entire Baltic.

My other thoughts:
So France and England will virtually be eternal foes, but what of England's other major enemy, Hapsburg Spain?

Finally, I dunno about that roundel, the coat of arms in the middle look a bit off center IMHO.

Click to expand...

What other 17th century Britain story lines are you referring to that are out there?

A Bourbon on the English throne? If the Stuart line dies out, the idea at least is a possibility, but since the commonwealth survives, it ain't gonna happen.

I guess it depends on whether England and the Netherlands will continue to be rivals. Cromwell avoided further conflict with the Dutch, and his successors may try and continue this. Plus the Netherlands is bound to be at war at France, which the be Britain's enemy at some point.

Good point. The Commonwealth may side with the Dutch.

I'm still working that out myself.

New Netherlands taking over New Sweden is a possibility. I imagine New Netherlands will eventually be called "Wilhelmsland" or something.

England may still support Sweden, but the Commonwealth may have to double check their priorities.

Yah, Britain and Spain will be enemy's. Also, I'll upload another version of the roundel soon.

Zoidberg12 said:

As a bonus, I made this air force roundel for the Commonwealth.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't a roundel be an unlikely symbol for a Commonwealth air force? IIRC, the roundel was first used by the French who based it off their old republican tricolour cockades. The British adopted it because the French were allies so using a similarly shaped symbol made sense (the similar color scheme also helped), whereas the Central Powers all used crosses and boxes that were black and white. So a Commonwealth aircraft insignia might take on a more traditionally British form, such as a shield or something, though the full coat of arms might be a little overcomplicated. Maybe a shield quartered with the English and Scottish flags.

9 Fanged Hummingbird said:

Wouldn't a roundel be an unlikely symbol for a Commonwealth air force? IIRC, the roundel was first used by the French who based it off their old republican tricolour cockades. The British adopted it because the French were allies so using a similarly shaped symbol made sense (the similar color scheme also helped), whereas the Central Powers all used crosses and boxes that were black and white. So a Commonwealth aircraft insignia might take on a more traditionally British form, such as a shield or something, though the full coat of arms might be a little overcomplicated. Maybe a shield quartered with the English and Scottish flags.

Click to expand...

Thats actually not a bad idea. Instead of circular roundels countries will probably have their national symbols on planes instead. For example the flour de leis for France and the Commonwealth coat of arms for Britain etc.

Any other ideas for the timeline?

Liked 'The Roundhead' website page, especially the Facebook and Twitter references (Arab spring anyone, only in this timeline Irish spring).

As for Lord Protector Cameron, surely butterflies would have a completely difficult political class, but would he still be legalising Gay marriage? Anyway Cameron is far too liberal (small l) to lead a semi-fascist state.

Another point I've seen Fascism described as a Catholic / Latin / Mediterranean ideology (P.I.G.S. Fascist in the thirties, economic basket cases in the noughties OTL), so would the Commonwealth be a different type of authoritarian regime, being anti-Catholic, maybe a more socialistic / soviet style as the original Roundhead side during the ECW did include groups such as levellers who were decididly socialistic, but very much a marginal outlier at the time.

Here's a TL with the premise you're looking for:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=293857.

Unknown said:

Here's a TL with the premise you're looking for:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=293857.

Click to expand...

I've actually seen this, and I've actually been planning on reading it. Maybe I'll get ideas from it, but I don't want me and Xibilia's version to be an exact copy. Still a few ideas could be useful.

Alright, heres a skeleton timeline I made for this world. Mind you not everything here is final, and I want to see what you guys think can add to and improve this basic idea.

1658: Oliver Cromwell dies. He is succeeded by someone more competent that his son Richard, or by a more competent Richard, who is able to keep the Parliament together.

1660: The Anglo-Spanish War ends the same as OTL, except the peace is made under the continuing Commonwealth.

OTL's Second Anglo-Dutch War is butterflied away. The Dutch keep New Netherlands and the Commonwealth keeps Acadia.

1667-1668: The War of the Devolution; France gains land in the Spanish Netherlands. The Commonwealth joined their former ally from the Anglo-Spanish War, France, against Spain, the Netherlands and Sweden, in an effort to finally subdue Dutch dominance over world trade, TTL's Second Anglo-Dutch War. While Dutch Trade is in the end harmed, though Britain is unable to capture New Netherlands.

1670's: TTL's Franco-Dutch War, France fights more weakened Netherlands, France annexes all of Spanish Netherlands. Commonwealth neutral, but supported France.

1685: King Charles II dies in exile in Paris, France. English royalists proclaim Charles brother James Duke of York to be King James II and VII. The Edict of Nantes is not revoked, leading to a stronger France.

The Nine Years War is butterflied. Relations between Commonwealth and France go sour.

1699-1710: TTL's War of the Spanish Succession; HRE, Commonwealth of Britain, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal and Savoy fight against France to contain her power of the potential of a Franco-Spanish union. During the war a number of royalist uprisings begin in England and the Scottish highlands, which are put down. At the end of the war, France recognizes British claims to Cromwell's Land (Rupert's Land), Newfoundland and St Kitts. Spain cedes a number of lands to the Hapsburgs like OTL, but not to Britain. France keeps Acadia and no Accadian expulsions.

1707: James Stuart dies at the age of 74 in France. His nineteen year old son is declared King James III and VIII by a number of Catholic loyalists. Meanwhile, the Protestant loyalists claim William III, Prince of Orange to be King William III and II.

1710's: The EIC is reestablished as the Commonwealth East India Company (CEIC).

18th-19th centuries: The British CEIC colonizes a number of Indian lands. The French remain the stronger power in India, while other powers like Portugal, Denmark-Norway and the Netherlands also remain strong in the region. A number of strong independent states (Mughals, Maratha) surround the European colonies, and continue to do so.

1715: William III, Prince of Orange dies at the age of 65.

Mid 18th century: By this point in time, the Commonwealth of Britain has evolved into a fairly democratic state by the standards of the time. Lord Protectors are elected by not just those in Parliament, but by wealthy citizens as well. The control given to the Lord Protector has decreased only slightly, but Parliament still had a good degree of power in the government.

1730's: Royalists rebellions break out in the Commonwealth. James Francis Edward Stuart is killed in battle. Bonnie Prince Charlie a meer child, becomes the next heir to the English throne.

1740's: TTL's War of the Austrian Accession. Britain remains neutral.

1750's: New Netherland is renamed "Wilhelmsland".

Seven Years War butterflied. Commonwealth colonies are New England, the southern colonies, Cromwell's Land, Newfoundland, and same Caribbean possessions as OTL with addition to all of St. Kitts. France has Louisiana, Quebec and Acadia. Netherlands has Wilhelmsland.

1770's-1800's: A number of wars in India.

1790's: Rebellions brake out in Maryland and Virginia against the Commonwealth. Both become independent republics.

1799: Wilhelmsland is given a responsible government by the Dutch Republic, more autonomy.

1800's: France becomes a Constitutional Monarchy under Louis XIV.

1810's: Rebellions break out in Ireland.

1820: King Louis XVI dies.

1820-1862: King Louis XVII reigns as French monarch.

1840's: Rebellion breaks out in the penal colony of Georgia and becomes an independent republic. New England and Cromwell's Land remains loyal to Britain

1850's: Quebec, Acadia and Louisiana are combined into the Kingdom of Canadia, and is in a personal union under the French crown.

Late 19th century: Rivalry between Commonwealth and France grows. The German Reich is established.

1860's-1900's: TTL's Scramble for Africa.

1880's-1900's: Commonwealth loses a number of Imperial conflicts, some to France, Spain and Russia.

1900's-1930's: Political turmoil in the Commonwealth.

1912: The Peoples Puritanical Party, a fascist party, is founded in London by former general John F. C. Fuller.

1924: Soldiers of Peoples Puritanical Party under the JFC Fuller storm the parliament in London. JFC Fuller is declared Lord Protector. Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill, the Moderate-Conservative Lord Protector is executed.

Late 1920's: Parliament is purged of dissent, Commonwealth becomes one party state.

1930's: The Commonwealth defense League is formed to keep a hold on dissent in Britain.

1929-1933: The Franco-German War is fought. France wins, putting harsh terms on Germany.

1945: JFC Fuller dies. He is succeed as Lord Protector by Oswald Earnald Mosley.

1953: Ireland revolts in response to years of oppression under the fascist British government. France and Spain support the rebellion.

2010: David Cameron becomes Lord Protector.

2013: Revolts begin again in Ireland due to a large amount of foreign social media.

1840's: Rebellion breaks out in the penal colony of Georgia and becomes an independent republic. New England and Cromwell's Land remains loyal to Britain

Click to expand...

Yeah, you're gonna need to find a different name for Georgia...unless it was named after a famed Lord Protector named George. OTL Georgia was named after George II (or George I, I can't remember).

1699-1710: TTL's War of the Spanish Succession; HRE, Commonwealth of Britain, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal and Savoy fight against France to contain her power of the potential of a Franco-Spanish union. During the war a number of royalist uprisings begin in England and the Scottish highlands, which are put down. At the end of the war, France recognizes British claims to Cromwell's Land (Rupert's Land), Newfoundland and St Kitts. Spain cedes a number of lands to the Hapsburgs like OTL, but not to Britain. France keeps Acadia and no Accadian expulsions.

Click to expand...

Are there not various factions in Spain fighting for France? If not, then I don't see why Spain would have to cede territory to Austria if thy were fighting on the same side.

Seven Years War butterflied. Commonwealth colonies are New England, the southern colonies, Cromwell's Land, Newfoundland, and same Caribbean possessions as OTL with addition to all of St. Kitts. France has Louisiana, Quebec and Acadia. Netherlands has Wilhelmsland.

...

1790's: Rebellions brake out in Maryland and Virginia against the Commonwealth. Both become independent republics.

Click to expand...

A surviving Commonwealth is going to have a huge impact on the American colonies. First, there won't be a 'Maryland' without Queen Mary, and second the patterns of migration will be hugely different, since IOTL much of the settlement of the 13 colonies, particularly New England but also in Pennsylvania, was a result of non-conformist religious groups fleeing England after the restoration. If the Commonwealth remains in power there's no reason for Puritans to flee across the Atlantic. Instead you might have the reverse: traditional church of England types getting out of puritanical commonwealth England.

Zoidberg12 said:

One thing I forgot to ask, who are some potential alternate candidates to succeed Oliver Cromwell as Lord Protector other an his son Richard?

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I would like to promote my own timeline:

Rise of the Generals, a Lord Protector Timeline

The POD is Cromwell's second son Oliver does not die of the Typhoid and instead survives to become Cromwell's heir. As a Civil War Veteran who served amongst those of the Good Old Cause he enjoys a strong military following, hence Rise of the Generals.

Zoidberg12 said:

Alright, heres a skeleton timeline I made for this world. Mind you not everything here is final, and I want to see what you guys think can add to and improve this basic idea.

1658: Oliver Cromwell dies. He is succeeded by someone more competent that his son Richard, or by a more competent Richard, who is able to keep the Parliament together.

1660: The Anglo-Spanish War ends the same as OTL, except the peace is made under the continuing Commonwealth.

Click to expand...

Here is the problem -

The Republicans didn't like the post of Lord Protector. Many voted against it.

A democractically elected Lord Protector is unlikely because of the belief they didn't need a Head of State at all, everything could be ruled from the House of Commons. Any heir to Cromwell will be Military faction and therefore be unable to work with the House of Commons of OTL which was stacked with Royalists and Republicans. (Look at OTL's Parliaments under the Lord Protector. All were anti-Lord Protector, with NO LAWS passed in the First Protectorate Parliament, only the Humble Petition and Advice approved in the Second, which meant the Third Protectorate Parliament was full of Republicans and Royalists who will never work together with each other OR the Militarists, preventing ANY resolution through the House of Commons).

I resolved this with a 4th Civil War and a Miltarist victory, turning the Protectorate into basically a Dictatorship by the Generals.

The only other option is straight Commonwealth with NO HEAD OF STATE. Yet that was what basically happened in OTL but Lambert and Fleetwood then moved in to crush the Commonwealth, were defeated by General Monck who was a Monarchist and the Monarchy is destroyed.

For you I would suggest either:

a) Removed the clause in the Humble Petition and Advice giving Cromwell the power to choose his heir. Makes the role of Lord Protector entirely democratic chosen by the House of Commons (and therefore would likely be abolished before 2000s much like the Stadtholders of Orange).

b) No Lord Protector at all. POD removing Lambert/Fleetwoods attempt to seize power, or Monck's control of the army post-Cromwell and keep it a Pure Commonwealth with no Lord Protector, JUST the House of Commons.

Personally I like the idea of a surviving Commonwealth that tempers out instead of inevitably becoming some sort of fascist dictatorship like what always happens in a surviving Commonwealth TL. As for the position of Lord Protector, it surviving but with a more democratic tradition sounds kind of cool.

9 Fanged Hummingbird said:

Personally I like the idea of a surviving Commonwealth that tempers out instead of inevitably becoming some sort of fascist dictatorship like what always happens in a surviving Commonwealth TL. As for the position of Lord Protector, it surviving but with a more democratic tradition sounds kind of cool.

Click to expand...

I second that, and it's something I've never seen.

Well if you're looking for 'strong' heirs to Cromwell, Charles Fleetwood and Henry Ireton are both men to look up.

A kernel of an idea I had for a TL was to have King Charles sent into exile at some point after the First Civil War, or escapes of his own accord (more likely dragged kicking and screaming by someone sane).

Charles will spend the rest of his life (if he's in good health he could survive until the early 1670s) formulating plots, invasions and assassinations against his enemies, to a level that would put the Jacobites to shame (the Carolines?).

If Charles maintains his gift for idiocy and all these efforts fail to some extent it provides three things for the Parliamentary cause.

1) A unifying bogey man
2) Removes the regicide which had serious psychological, political and moral effects on the Commonwealth and its leaders
3) Cripples royalist sympathy in the country

Also the Stuarts will be in exile, almost certainly in France. The heirs are Charles Junior, a closet Catholic and James a proud Catholic. Combine with the need to win over European princes to their cause, post Charles Senior, the Stuart cause is religiously toxic, if it wasn't already before.

Now that's not to say someone else wont become a candidate for a new kingdom in England but you have until 1675(ish) rather than 166o to build the basis for a long-term republic and in a more sympathetic atmosphere.

Zoidberg12 said:

2010: David Cameron becomes Lord Protector.

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Who?!?

(Seriously, even if you're using really heavy-duty butterfly nets, an exact or nearly-exact version of OTL's David Cameron almost certainly wouldn't exist ITTL: The OTL version's ancestors include King William IV [through an illegitimate child], so without the same succession of monarchs in Britain...)