AHC:British Vietnam
- Thread starter mr1940s
- Start date
Ryan
Donor
that sounds very difficult. assuming things are OTL until after WW2, Britain doesn't particularly want it's colonies anymore, so the British aren't going to get bogged down in a big, expensive (and ultimately pointless) war to keep them. besides, as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) the only profitable parts of the empire were India and Malaysia, so if it was going to happen, it would be there.
also, I believe that the anti communist sentiment in Britain was quite a bit weaker than it was in the US, so the British probably wouldn't stick around to fight the "red menace" like the US did in Vietnam.
also, I believe that the anti communist sentiment in Britain was quite a bit weaker than it was in the US, so the British probably wouldn't stick around to fight the "red menace" like the US did in Vietnam.
Maybe if Greece falls under the Soviet sphere of influence then Cyprus could make for a reasonable equivalent?
Or perhaps we could get something going in Burma? Maybe Vietnam goes communist quicker and the rest of SE Asia looks set to follow. India and Britain have to try and keep Burma propped up?
Or perhaps we could get something going in Burma? Maybe Vietnam goes communist quicker and the rest of SE Asia looks set to follow. India and Britain have to try and keep Burma propped up?
Flocculencio
Donor
It happened in Malaya but there the insurgency didn't have popular support because (a) it was mostly limited to ethnic chinese and (b) the insurgents couldn't play the anticolonial card because the Malaysian nationalist politicians had already begun the independence process
Britain doesn't decide to ditch everything east of Suez. Qaboos doesn't oust his father/is killed earlier/handwavium. Britain decides to back Omanese government with more forces. Inability of Oman's government and reliance on British and hisshereticiranianshiss fuel the insurgency.
OK, it's not Vietnam as such, more like Afghanistan, not enough troops to cover everything and launch offensive operations rather than too hard a nut to crack.
OK, it's not Vietnam as such, more like Afghanistan, not enough troops to cover everything and launch offensive operations rather than too hard a nut to crack.
theirishdreamer
Banned
hmm
Um ye have heard of Northern Ireland right?
Just make it worse, or do some of the nuttier Tory policies and drag in the Republic.
Um ye have heard of Northern Ireland right?
Just make it worse, or do some of the nuttier Tory policies and drag in the Republic.
What about Aden? Nothing on the same scale as Vietnam but it was an unwinnable war which we effectively cut and run from at the end.
To get Britain involved in a real Vietnan type quagmire then I think you need to have a victory at Suez that makes British politicians more determined to play a major role in World affairs. Post Suez and Winds of Change we were looking to get rid of as many colonies as possible, Borneo and Afen were fought to try and ensure that that process was conducted on our terms, one was successful the other not. If the prevailing view is to try to hang on to as much as possible then a major conflict is a real possibility.
To get Britain involved in a real Vietnan type quagmire then I think you need to have a victory at Suez that makes British politicians more determined to play a major role in World affairs. Post Suez and Winds of Change we were looking to get rid of as many colonies as possible, Borneo and Afen were fought to try and ensure that that process was conducted on our terms, one was successful the other not. If the prevailing view is to try to hang on to as much as possible then a major conflict is a real possibility.
But the OP referred to a colonial conflict whereas NI is part of the UK proper. I appreciate others will have different views on that though
Alex Richards
Donor
Then Algeria wasn't a colonial conflict either then
Ah, you forget that the Unionists were the, albeit slim, majority in NI, not a minority of about 5-10% trying to hang on against the majority.
theirishdreamer
Banned
and
And the French colonists were a majority in several areas of Algeria if we use your logic, Northern Ireland was created purposely to create that slim majority. Technically Unionists were a minority in Ireland as a whole (with between 9-15%) so your argument is kinda off in this regards.
Partition was the best of any solution but we shouldn't pretend it was anything but an artificial creation to preseve something resembling peace. If we used that logic parts of Algeria would still parts of Metropole france
And the French colonists were a majority in several areas of Algeria if we use your logic, Northern Ireland was created purposely to create that slim majority. Technically Unionists were a minority in Ireland as a whole (with between 9-15%) so your argument is kinda off in this regards.
Partition was the best of any solution but we shouldn't pretend it was anything but an artificial creation to preseve something resembling peace. If we used that logic parts of Algeria would still parts of Metropole france
And i can't see anything wrong with letting a group of people using self determination, NI isn't Algeria
For a major UK guerrilla war you will need a further back POD than WW2
theirishdreamer
Banned
hmm
Not entirely. Follow through on Churchills plans to invade to get access to the ports in WW2.
Not entirely. Follow through on Churchills plans to invade to get access to the ports in WW2.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Palestine yet. Anything could have forced Britain to continue its presence in the region, igniting a three-way war where Britain is reluctant to withdraw for face-saving reasons.
Riain
Banned
One thing about Vietnam was the high intensity conflict in the north with SAMs and Migs, and artillery duels along the DMZ. Is there somewhere in the British Empire where those conditions could be met, and the RAF and RN-FAA go head to head with Migs and SAMs for a prolonged period and the Army engages in battalion scale battles?
There was probably no colony the British were eager to cut and run from than Palestine.
Really, the only analogue I can think of would be Ireland.
I don't know enough to say if these are likely but in no particular order
1. Kenya gets nastier and the Mau Mau uprising turns into a full Viet Kong type situation. We Brits conveniently forget that we used Avro Lincolns to bomb areas of Kenya in this conflict.
2. A British Government has a complete mental breakdown and supports Ian Smith's Rhodesia (only lasts to next election as one of the promises will be to pull out)
3. We try and stop Apartheid in its tracks before we completely disengage from South Africa.
1. Kenya gets nastier and the Mau Mau uprising turns into a full Viet Kong type situation. We Brits conveniently forget that we used Avro Lincolns to bomb areas of Kenya in this conflict.
2. A British Government has a complete mental breakdown and supports Ian Smith's Rhodesia (only lasts to next election as one of the promises will be to pull out)
3. We try and stop Apartheid in its tracks before we completely disengage from South Africa.
Konfrontasi is probably your best bet, Indonesian Tu-16's flew mock attacks on Singapore before being chased off by RAF Javelins, there are long standing rumours that several Indinesian aircraft were engaged and shot down over Borneo but this wasn't made public as the government didn't want to inflame the situation. Have it boil over in some way and you've got a full scale war on your hands.