Fw187 in BoB, Luftwaffe's P-51?

I already started a similar thread to this a while back:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=245178&highlight=fw187
Based on some new information I've come across in another thread on another forum, I decided to raise it again, because I find the subject pretty interesting.

Here is the thread I started:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/fw-187-could-have-been-german-p-51-a-38757.html

The result was a chart that I've attached below showing the speeds of the actually tested Db601 version of the two seater Fw187 with normal radiators (no surface evaporative cooling) and full armament, munitions, and armor. That is it was tested as a pre-production model with Db601 engines, rather than the OTL Jumo 210s, which were much less powerful. The data was compiled from this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Focke-Wulf-Fw...EEM_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382217089&sr=1-5

Basically it includes all of the extensive testing data from Focke-Wulf about the Fw187 type with a bunch of different engines in combat layout (i.e. not just for speed records or show trials to get it green lit for production).

If it had been equipped with the DB601A engines it had been originally designed for, instead of the Jumo 210 it was given, records show that the pre-production model with full fuel, ammo, armor, and armament (not to mention two crew in the modified 'destroyer' version, rather than the single seat fighter version it was designed as) that its top speed would have been 380-385mph with 950 miles range (with 1300 liter internal fuel). That's nearly 30 mph faster than the Spitfire Mk. II and 45 mph faster than the Hurricane Mk. II.

Without being modified to include an extra crew member, which increased the weight, changed the cockpit, and compromised the design a bit, the base top speed would have been around 390mph and 1000 miles range for the single seat fighter version. That is with all of the armor and armament of the combat version. Its firepower was the same as the 1941 Bf110 too.

So, assuming that the Bf110 is not produced as per OTL, but instead the Fw187 enters production as a single seat air superiority fighter/long range escort /interceptor/bomber destroyer, it would have been ready for the Battle of Britain and probably even in combat service as early the Norwegian Campaign. In fact I think that its reasonable to assume that there would have been three full Geschwader (Wings for english speakers) ready by July 1940. That means about 270 aircraft total with 90 aircraft per Geschwader. Assuming the standard 68% operational readiness level of the average Geschwader in August 1940, that gives us about 184 operational Fw187s for the BoB.

That's worse than OTL, where 289 Bf110s were operational:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain#cite_note-13

So what does this mean for the BoB?
IOTL the Luftwaffe lacked long range air support and was limited to what range the Me 109E had without drop tanks (they were only available in small numbers in September) and had to withdraw their Bf110s from battle about half way through on due to their vulnerability to the Spitfire and heavy losses; this left the LW seriously short of fighters and fighter pilots in the battle.
http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Britai...G0M_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382218132&sr=1-7

Of course the LW would lose the excellent Fighter-Bomber capabilities of the Bf110, which were developed during the BoB; of course the Fw187 was adapted to that role and could have filled it if needed...also the Me109E was able to operate in that role sufficiently too, so could operate in that role as needed.

Richard Overy raises the interesting point that throughout the BoB the LW fighter units were actually outnumbered by Fighter Command and as the battle went on the number of operational LW fighter pilots dropped proportionally to the RAF very quickly AND actually dropped relative to the number of operational LW fighter aircraft! IOTL the loss of the Bf110 to the battle meant that there were even less fighters and pilots available, which put even greater pressure on the already overburdened Me109 pilots.

So having the Fw187 in operation instead of the Bf110 meant that not only would the LW have an aircraft superior to the Spitfire by a significant margin, but also wouldn't have to have them escorted by the Me109s and wouldn't lose them as fighters for the battle when they were needed the most.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_110_operational_history#Battle_of_Britain

The Battle of Britain revealed the Bf 110's fatal weaknesses as a daylight fighter against single-engine aircraft. A relatively large aircraft, it lacked the agility of the Hurricane and Spitfire and was easily seen. The World War I-era Bristol Fighter had done well with a rear gunner firing a rifle-caliber machine gun, but by World War II, this was insufficient to deter the eight-gun fighters facing the Bf 110. Its size and weight meant that it had high wing loading, which limited its maneuverability. Furthermore, although it had a higher top speed than contemporary RAF Hurricanes, it had poor acceleration. However, it was unique at the time as a long-range bomber escort, and did not have the problems of restricted range that hampered the Bf 109E. Although outclassed, it was still formidable as a high escort for bombers using the tactic of diving upon an enemy, delivering a long-range burst from its powerful forward-facing armament, then breaking contact to run for it.[26]

One of the engines from Hess's Bf 110 on display at the National Museum of Flight in East Lothian, Scotland.
Hermann Göring's nephew, Hans-Joachim Göring, was a pilot with III./Zerstörergeschwader 76, flying the Messerschmitt Bf 110. He was killed in action on 11 July 1940, when his Bf 110 was shot down by Hurricanes of No. 87 Squadron RAF. His aircraft crashed into Portland Harbour.[27]

The worst day of the battle for the Bf 110 was 15 August 1940, when nearly 30 Bf 110s were shot down, the equivalent of an entire Gruppe. Between 16–17 August, 23 more were lost.[28]

After the 18 August there was a marked reduction in the number of Zerstörer operations. Their seeming absence has often been equated with the simultaneous disappearance from the Battle of the Ju 87. But wereas the Ju 87 had to be withdrawn because it simply could not survive in the hostile environment over southern England in the late summer of 1940, the reason for the decrease in Bf 110 activity was much more mundane. Replacements were not keeping pace with losses. There were just not enough Zerstörer available.

—Messerschmitt Bf 110 Zerstörer Aces World War Two[29]
The last day of August proved to be a rare success for the Messerschmitt Bf 110. ZG 26 claimed 13 RAF fighters shot down, which "was not far off the mark", for three losses and five damaged. However, on 4 and 27 September, 15 Bf 110s were lost on each day.[30] The Luftwaffe had embarked on the battle with 237 serviceable Bf 110s. 223 were lost in the course of it.[31]

Click to expand...

Before this point is raised, these could categorically not be used as close escort fighter, just as the Bf110 wasn't ordered to do so during the BoB IOTL; it would be used only as a 'free hunter' and a 'boom and zoomer' maximizing its speed, dive, and climb advantages (which were the very best at the time of any aircraft in the world in 1940, not to mention in the BoB). Its heavy firepower (as heavy as the OTL Bf110 in the BoB), long range, and high speed would essentially make it the equivalent of the P-38 against the Zero in the Pacific, or the P-51 over Europe in 1944. I imagine it would be used against the Spitfires exclusively and let the Me109s, with their advantage over the Hurricanes, tackle the slower Hurricanes.

So what would this mean to the fighting? Would the LW be able to keep its losses down during the battle and inflict heavy enough losses on the RAF to 'win'?

The FW-187 single-seat fighter powered by DB-601 makes as much sense as a Merlin-powered from scratch Whirlwind, its natural WI counterpart.

Wait, is this a Wermacht weapons WI that actually accounts for reducing resources to another project?


Well, now I've seen everything...

Just Leo said:

The FW-187 single-seat fighter powered by DB-601 makes as much sense as a Merlin-powered from scratch Whirlwind, its natural WI counterpart.

Click to expand...

Was the Whirlwind designed around the Merlin? The Fw187 was designed around the DB601, but was given the Jumo 210 due to the preference for the Bf110 in distributing the limited DBs. AFAIK the Whirlwind was designed around the Peregrine engines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Whirlwind_(fighter)

Westland were aware that their design - which had been built around the Peregrine - was incapable of being re-engined with anything larger.[11]

Click to expand...

Apparently it was tested with Merlins, but things didn't go all that well.

So it seems it was not like the Fw187 in that it couldn't take anything bigger than the Peregrine, unlike the Fw187, which could and did fly with the DB605, achieving 420mph in the process in testing in 1942. I agree that it would have been the British counterpart, but an inferior one in speed and maneuverability, not to mention later, as it wasn't ready by 1939 due to engine issues. But then this thread is not about the Whirlwind.

Dan Reilly The Great said:

Wait, is this a Wermacht weapons WI that actually accounts for reducing resources to another project?


Well, now I've seen everything...

Click to expand...

I've always mentioned the either or nature of the Fw187 vs. Bf110 in any discussion of this aircraft.

Just Leo said:

The FW-187 single-seat fighter powered by DB-601 makes as much sense as a Merlin-powered from scratch Whirlwind, its natural WI counterpart.

Click to expand...

Disagree, the Fw187 is more comparable to the Gloster twin - the Whirlwind is smaller.

Fw-187 Span 50' 2" length 36' 5" Area 327 sq. ft.
Gloster Span 50' 0" length 37' 0" Area 386 sq. ft.
Whirlwind Span 45' 0" length 31' 6" Area 250 sq. ft.

Moreover, the '187' was designed for DB 600 engines of 960 hp. My understanding is that when the 1,000 hp DB 600A engines were fitted and the max speed of 390 mph was attained , it was with the benefit of surface evaporation - which was unreliable (ok for a record attempt but nothing else).
AS for use in the BoB, Goerings 'stick with the bombers' would soon screw that!

One thing to remember - the Me-110 had broadly comparable speed to a Spitfire but proved to be very vulnerable due to problems such as rate of roll and acceleration. Being smaller, the Fw 187 will experience these problems a little less, but they'll still be there. As such a better comparison would probably be to the P-47, which was actually roughly the same weight and dimensions.

OTL the Thunderbolt was better than the Lightning but worse than the Mustang - and you'd expect the same here, better than the Me-110 but worse than the Me-109.

merlin said:

Disagree, the Fw187 is more comparable to the Gloster twin - the Whirlwind is smaller.

Fw-187 Span 50' 2" length 36' 5" Area 327 sq. ft.
Gloster Span 50' 0" length 37' 0" Area 386 sq. ft.
Whirlwind Span 45' 0" length 31' 6" Area 250 sq. ft.

Moreover, the '187' was designed for DB 600 engines of 960 hp. My understanding is that when the 1,000 hp DB 600A engines were fitted and the max speed of 390 mph was attained , it was with the benefit of surface evaporation - which was unreliable (ok for a record attempt but nothing else).
AS for use in the BoB, Goerings 'stick with the bombers' would soon screw that!

Click to expand...

The Fw187 never used surface evaporative cooling, there was a misunderstanding in the translation of Focke-Wulf documents that has found its way into all the english language sources online; according to Dietmar Harmann's research into the original testing documents the Fw187 used a new high pressure cooling system that later went on to be the basis of the new cooling system of the DB605.

As to the close escort rule, I addressed that in the OP: the BF110, which is the aircraft that the Fw187 would replace in its roles, is the heuristic for how the FW187 would be used; that is it wouldn't be used as a close escort, because the Bf110 was never used in that way. Both the Bf110 and the Fw187 worked best at high speeds as a top cover aircraft, which is why the Fw187 wouldn't get that order. We know Goering IOTL made an except for the Bf110 in this role, as it would compromise its utility, which ITTL would also compromise the Fw187.

pdf27 said:

One thing to remember - the Me-110 had broadly comparable speed to a Spitfire but proved to be very vulnerable due to problems such as rate of roll and acceleration. Being smaller, the Fw 187 will experience these problems a little less, but they'll still be there. As such a better comparison would probably be to the P-47, which was actually roughly the same weight and dimensions.

Click to expand...

No, the Bf110 was significantly slower than the Spitfire; it was only about as fast as the Hurricane, but as you mention it had serious issues with mobility and acceleration, which made its top speed moot unless it was difficult to achieve before the single engine fighters got at it.

Now the FW187 did not have that problem; it was a high energy fighter that accelerated very well and was nearly as maneuverable as the Me109; it also was a much better diver and climber than even the Me109, which was the best diver and climber IOTL during the BoB. The main difference though between the Fw187 and Bf110 is the speed; the Fw187 at all altitudes is at least 20 mph faster than the Spitfire, which the BF110 was 10-20 mph slower. The Fw187 didn't have a problem quickly getting to its top speed unlike the Bf110 and if it got into a problem it could dive away from the enemy much quicker than even the Me109, which was that aircraft's best means of escape from a bad situation. So you're off base suggesting that the Bf110's problems would even remotely be comparable to that of the Fw187, because the aircraft were very different, their only similarity being that they were in the two engine class of fighter; even their design was different: the Bf110 was designed from the outset as a multirole bomber, not a fighter, while the Fw187 was designed as a high performance fighter with it aerodynamics the pinnacle of design. So really they aren't even in the same class, so it'd be like comparing the Fw187 to the Ju88G.

pdf27 said:

OTL the Thunderbolt was better than the Lightning but worse than the Mustang - and you'd expect the same here, better than the Me-110 but worse than the Me-109.

Click to expand...

Depends in what area; as a rolling dogfighter, sure; but then the Me109 wasn't as good as the Hurricane and Spitfire as a turn and burn aircraft either.

What the advantage would be here is that the Fw187 was much faster than any aircraft, even slightly faster than the Spitfire Mk. II on WEP. The Bf110 didn't have that advantage and even if it did couldn't take advantage of it due to its sluggishness and poor maneuverability, two problems the Fw187 was not a victim of.

The LW did not have a fighter with a speed advantage like this IOTL to compare it to until the Fw190, which was much faster than its contemporary opponent; checking to see what happened there, we see that with a 20-30mph speed advantage the Fw190 swept the skies of Spitfires until the Mark IX was introduced.

wiking said:

The LW did not have a fighter with a speed advantage like this IOTL to compare it to until the Fw190, which was much faster than its contemporary opponent; checking to see what happened there, we see that with a 20-30mph speed advantage the Fw190 swept the skies of Spitfires until the Mark IX was introduced.

Click to expand...

I'd say that the near impact would be more British aircraft casualties and a longer, more drawn-out campaign. This wouldn't change the fact that as soon as the battle deteriorates to terror bombing with tactical bombers, it's lost for the Luftwaffe.

After this phase I'd imagine that the Fw187s will see action Eastern Front and Mediterranean as well.

By mid-war the fact that the sleek and aerodynamic hull of the Fw187 hull is rather small will start to limit the possibility of late-war upgrade programs. Eventually Western allies will be able to fight the Germans with comparable quality combined with overwhelming quantity, but by then increased interest towards twin-engined fighters on both sides has most likely produced some interesting butterflies.

Karelian said:

I'd say that the near impact would be more British aircraft casualties and a longer, more drawn-out campaign. This wouldn't change the fact that as soon as the battle deteriorates to terror bombing with tactical bombers, it's lost for the Luftwaffe.

Click to expand...

Yeah. Maybe it'd force the RAF to adopt a sounder armament scheme than just crap-tons of .303 Browning MGs in single-engined fighters earlier on.
If Hawker had the plans for the wing on the SABCA Hurricanes, switching over to Quad .50s would be a good idea (mostly to save on design work and testing, as they'd know everything already worked.) It's not the most effective armament versus bombers, but it's better than a bunch of Rifle-caliber weapons, and would shred a fighter.

As it was though, the two MG FF cannon would be replaced in production by the MG151 maybe midway through the BoB, which would make that version of the Fw187 much more dangerous, since it would have a decent main armament for once.

Karelian said:

After this phase I'd imagine that the Fw187s will see action Eastern Front and Mediterranean as well.

Click to expand...

Obviously. It'd have the range for operating as an escort fighter in the Med (which would solve a lot of supply issues,) and could probably handle operations on the Eastern Front.

Karelian said:

By mid-war the fact that the sleek and aerodynamic hull of the Fw187 hull is rather small will start to limit the possibility of late-war upgrade programs. Eventually Western allies will be able to fight the Germans with comparable quality combined with overwhelming quantity, but by then increased interest towards twin-engined fighters on both sides has most likely produced some interesting butterflies.

Click to expand...

Yeah. But by the end of the war it'd still likely be able to be shoehorned into being a decent interceptor and fast bomber/ground attack aircraft if it isn't replaced by an improved design.

After all, it'll be fast enough to still deal with Thunderbolts and Mustangs, and could quite easily mount a dozen or so R4Ms and a set of MG151/20s or Mk108s in the interceptor role.

A slightly deeper fuselage, and the longer nose on the two-seat models would likely also allow for a radar set to be fitted, making the second seat actually useful. That said, it would likely need DB603s to be really competitive. The same basic modifications, without the radar could also make it a decent light bomber, if the second-seater had a decent bomb-sight, and the main armament was reduced to lighten the aircraft a bit.

wiking said:

Was the Whirlwind designed around the Merlin? The Fw187 was designed around the DB601, but was given the Jumo 210 due to the preference for the Bf110 in distributing the limited DBs. AFAIK the Whirlwind was designed around the Peregrine engines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Whirlwind_(fighter)
Apparently it was tested with Merlins, but things didn't go all that well.

So it seems it was not like the Fw187 in that it couldn't take anything bigger than the Peregrine, unlike the Fw187, which could and did fly with the DB605, achieving 420mph in the process in testing in 1942. I agree that it would have been the British counterpart, but an inferior one in speed and maneuverability, not to mention later, as it wasn't ready by 1939 due to engine issues. But then this thread is not about the Whirlwind.

Click to expand...

I'm learning so much. I've never heard of a Whirlwind with Merlin engines, except for an offer to do so Jan 1941, but the offer was refused. The fitment of DB605 to FW-187 also seems underdocumented, although drawings were made. I lead a sheltered life and haven't actually ever seen a photo of the earlier DB engine installation showing the radiator installation. Do you have any such illustrations?

Just Leo said:

I'm learning so much. I've never heard of a Whirlwind with Merlin engines, except for an offer to do so Jan 1941, but the offer was refused. The fitment of DB605 to FW-187 also seems underdocumented, although drawings were made. I lead a sheltered life and haven't actually ever seen a photo of the earlier DB engine installation showing the radiator installation. Do you have any such illustrations?

Click to expand...

No, I don't. Check here if you can get it via interlibrary loan:
http://www.amazon.com/Focke-Wulf-FW...id=1382299307&sr=8-5&keywords=dietmar+harmann

The twin-engined Focke-Wulf Fw 187 was a contemporary of the Messerschmitt Bf 110, however production was limited to a handful of prototypes. So far the story of this largely forgotten fighter has been shrouded in darkness. Developed by Professor Kurt Tank, the Fw 187 first flew in the summer of 1937. Not only was it faster than any other German fighter with similar engines, it was also earmarked for record attempts which had to be abandoned with the outbreak of war. The debacle of the Me 210, which was supposed to succeed the Bf 110, revived the Fw 187s fortunes. With a speed of 700 km/h, it was faster than any contemporary fighter and was considered as a replacement for the Me 210. Once again, however, no production contract was forthcoming. The few Fw 187s built served in industry defense and were later operated by the Vaerlse Aerial Gunnery School. This little-known aircraft is documented with numerous photographs and drawings, many of them never before published. This is a book for aviation enthusiasts and modelers, which closes a significant gap in German aviation history.

Click to expand...

NothingNow said:

Yeah. Maybe it'd force the RAF to adopt a sounder armament scheme than just crap-tons of .303 Browning MGs in single-engined fighters earlier on.
If Hawker had the plans for the wing on the SABCA Hurricanes, switching over to Quad .50s would be a good idea (mostly to save on design work and testing, as they'd know everything already worked.) It's not the most effective armament versus bombers, but it's better than a bunch of Rifle-caliber weapons, and would shred a fighter.

Click to expand...

Why though? The Fw187 wasn't any more armored than anything else in the sky at the time and the Brits didn't realize they needed something heavier than the rifle caliber armament until the BoF/BoB, so this POD would not change that AFAIK.

NothingNow said:

Yeah. But by the end of the war it'd still likely be able to be shoehorned into being a decent interceptor and fast bomber/ground attack aircraft if it isn't replaced by an improved design.

Click to expand...

There isn't a better design that I can think of, even the Me210/410 wasn't as good (unless as a light bomber, but in that role the Fw190 fighter-bomber was good enough for that role).
As an interceptor the Fw190 would have been superb due to its high speed, very fast climb, and excellent energy retention in a dive/climb. Its 1939 A-0 version had 4 rifle caliber machine guns and two cannons. By 1941-2 it could take 4 cannons in lieu of the 2 cannons and 4 machine guns; by 1943 I don't see why it couldn't just have 2 Mk108 30 caliber cannons instead of the 6 guns of the A-0 model. That would be enough to shred bombers without needing an escort of Fw190s or Me109s, as until 1944 it could outrun anything the allies had, not to mention kill Mosquitos during the day. Even in 1944 it could potentially even match the P-51D in terms of speed if the 700km/hr figure is right.

NothingNow said:

After all, it'll be fast enough to still deal with Thunderbolts and Mustangs, and could quite easily mount a dozen or so R4Ms and a set of MG151/20s or Mk108s in the interceptor role.

Click to expand...

Yep.

NothingNow said:

A slightly deeper fuselage, and the longer nose on the two-seat models would likely also allow for a radar set to be fitted, making the second seat actually useful. That said, it would likely need DB603s to be really competitive. The same basic modifications, without the radar could also make it a decent light bomber, if the second-seater had a decent bomb-sight, and the main armament was reduced to lighten the aircraft a bit.

Click to expand...

I don't think it could be adapted as a decent night-fighter due to the limited nose area for armament and the antenna for the radar. I also think the DB603 is way too big for the Fw187. The Jumo 213 was significantly smaller and lighter, so would be a better option IMHO.

wiking said:

I don't think it could be adapted as a decent night-fighter due to the limited nose area for armament and the antenna for the radar. I also think the DB603 is way too big for the Fw187. The Jumo 213 was significantly smaller and lighter, so would be a better option IMHO.

Click to expand...

The DB603A is 173mm longer, 54mm wider, and 61mm higher, but 22 lbs lighter than the Jumo 213A.

From my files, some drawings illustrate that the 187 wing was better suited than that of the follow-on Ta-154, for wing loading, but the engines were, like the British fighter that must not be named, too closely mounted to the fuselage to allow the fitment of a propellor of sufficient diameter, without some modification. Lengthening the inboard wing would also lighten the wing-loading, which would have otherwise cause the aircraft problems.

wiking said:

Why though? The Fw187 wasn't any more armored than anything else in the sky at the time and the Brits didn't realize they needed something heavier than the rifle caliber armament until the BoF/BoB, so this POD would not change that AFAIK.

Click to expand...

It was more something they'd want to do on the production line during the BoF/BoB (or even during the phoney war, since PR versions of the Fw187 seem like a pretty obvious use of the airframe) when it becomes evident that the Fw187 is too big to reliably kill with .303s, and too maneuverable for autocannons to be particularly useful (they're certainly powerful enough, but the low ROF is what does it in.) And it'd be a better fit than the sometimes tricky mixed-armament.

It was something of a side thing, but it'd be a reasonable proposition for countering the Fw187, alongside deploying early Lightnings and rushing production on more capable aircraft that might not be entirely ready for service.

wiking said:

I don't think it could be adapted as a decent night-fighter due to the limited nose area for armament and the antenna for the radar. I also think the DB603 is way too big for the Fw187. The Jumo 213 was significantly smaller and lighter, so would be a better option IMHO.

Click to expand...

Just Leo said:

The DB603A is 173mm longer, 54mm wider, and 61mm higher, but 22 lbs lighter than the Jumo 213A.

From my files, some drawings illustrate that the 187 wing was better suited than that of the follow-on Ta-154, for wing loading, but the engines were, like the British fighter that must not be named, too closely mounted to the fuselage to allow the fitment of a propellor of sufficient diameter, without some modification. Lengthening the inboard wing would also lighten the wing-loading, which would have otherwise cause the aircraft problems.

Click to expand...

Yeah, widening the inner wings by a good 500mm each, and either fitting larger, paddle-bladed props, or going with contra-rotating propellers to reduce the size of the necessary propellor (while reducing disc-loading, making for a more efficient use of power) would be a good, and fairly simple modification to make.

Just Leo said:

The DB603A is 173mm longer, 54mm wider, and 61mm higher, but 22 lbs lighter than the Jumo 213A.

From my files, some drawings illustrate that the 187 wing was better suited than that of the follow-on Ta-154, for wing loading, but the engines were, like the British fighter that must not be named, too closely mounted to the fuselage to allow the fitment of a propellor of sufficient diameter, without some modification. Lengthening the inboard wing would also lighten the wing-loading, which would have otherwise cause the aircraft problems.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the visual aid, that is amazing! Also thanks for the info about the DB603 too. What's your source about the DB vs Jumo weight though?
I think you're quoting the weight for the Jumo 213E not the A version. The increased weight of the superchargers in the E series bumped the weight up over the DB603A series.

Also have you changed your mind about the DB603 being a worthwhile engine?

P-51? Not a chance. Better than the Me-110, sure. Equal to a non-turbo-supercharged P-38? Maybe.

Speed just isn't there. It would have been nice, however, to face half as many (actually something less than half, but close enough) Fw-187 as FW-190s.

The Reich was in a zero sum game. Build this, you can't build that.

CalBear said:

P-51? Not a chance. Better than the Me-110, sure. Equal to a non-turbo-supercharged P-38? Maybe.

Speed just isn't there. It would have been nice, however, to face half as many (actually something less than half, but close enough) Fw-187 as FW-190s.

The Reich was in a zero sum game. Build this, you can't build that.

Click to expand...

And it's much better to build the Fw 187 than the Bf 110.
That's pretty much what we've all been suggesting. Either way, Fw 187 production doesn't really have an effect on Fw 190 production, since the bottleneck is in engine production.

NothingNow said:

And it's much better to build the Fw 187 than the Bf 110.
That's pretty much what we've all been suggesting. Either way, Fw 187 production doesn't really have an effect on Fw 190 production, since the bottleneck is in engine production.

Click to expand...

Well, it would since the discussed engine, the Jumo 213, was the engine used in the -190. With the original Jumo 210 it would simply be a different piece of meat on the table, maginal improvement over the -110 at best.

I think if the Fw 187 had been able to get the DB 601--especially the later production marks like the DB 601E rated at over 1,400 bhp--the Fw 187 would have been a phenomenally fast plane for its day, with a top speed probably as high as 420 mph! At that speed, it would have made the perfect plane to fly long-range intruder missions against de Havilland Mosquito planes, and possibly even be use to intercept B-17's and B-24's just as the bombers passed the coastline of continental Europe.

CalBear said:

Well, it would since the discussed engine, the Jumo 213, was the engine used in the -190. With the original Jumo 210 it would simply be a different piece of meat on the table, maginal improvement over the -110 at best.

Click to expand...

Just Leo pointed out that the Db603 was usable for the Fw187, so without the Me210/410 we can get those engines for the Fw187 late war.

CalBear said:

P-51? Not a chance. Better than the Me-110, sure. Equal to a non-turbo-supercharged P-38? Maybe.

Speed just isn't there. It would have been nice, however, to face half as many (actually something less than half, but close enough) Fw-187 as FW-190s.

The Reich was in a zero sum game. Build this, you can't build that.

Click to expand...

I meant P-51 in the sense of its speed relative to its opponents in 1940. In 1944 the P-51 had a 20-30 mph advantage not to mention it massive range advantage. In 1940 that would be the same advantage of the DB601 equipped Fw187 over the Mark II Spitfire.