WI: Larger bantustans?
- Thread starter abc123
- Start date
The bantustans were drawn up to exclude the most economically valuable land such as gold fields and areas with extensive agriculture. If you enlarge them there will come a point where the bantustans will include significant mineral deposits and arable land. At that point there is the danger that the bantustans can begin to show real independence from apartheid South Africa which would then leave apartheid South Africa in a weaker position economically. I can't see any apartheid leader of South Africa voluntarily doing that for the sake of international acceptance of the bantustans.
EDIT: See this resource for how the bantustans compared with gold, coal and mineral deposits and the best arable land for grains and livestock.
EDIT: See this resource for how the bantustans compared with gold, coal and mineral deposits and the best arable land for grains and livestock.
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abc123
Banned
Certainly Chris, but as I see these maps, some not insignificant mines were allready in Bantustans, so why not give them more territory in exchange for more mines? Also, what's bad in having them like real countries, that was the plan, at least officially, if you want the world to recognise them as real countries...
difficult not impossible
Verwoerd, wanted to do that. Of all the apartheid leaders, he in own paternalistic way wanted to create genuine separatism. Mandela's cousin Kazier Mantanzima, who was overseer of the Transkei wrote a book Independence my way, he said Verwoerd saw the Bantustan idea, as a form of defusing ethnic conflict. Was there racism involved? Absolutely, but he genuinely believed also.
Verwoerd, wanted to do that. Of all the apartheid leaders, he in own paternalistic way wanted to create genuine separatism. Mandela's cousin Kazier Mantanzima, who was overseer of the Transkei wrote a book Independence my way, he said Verwoerd saw the Bantustan idea, as a form of defusing ethnic conflict. Was there racism involved? Absolutely, but he genuinely believed also.
abc123
Banned
I agree.
So, why Verwoerd didn't do so? He didn't have enough support in National Party?
Alex Richards
Donor
At the very least, if you made the major parts of Bophuthatswana contiguous, they would have had a very good shot at making it as an independent nation. Heck, they tried to carry on post-Apartheid but there was coup d'état.
Also, could you post a larger version of that map?
Also, could you post a larger version of that map?
The entire idea of the "Homelands was to stick the Black population into shitholes away from the whites.
It is exactly what the United States tried with "Indian Territory" and reservations. At least the U.S. did it in the mid 1800s when that sort of crap was so common as to pass without comment. (BTW: it blew up in the U.S. face to a large degree when Oklahoma was found to be located on a massive pool of oil).
There was no desire for the Black population to succeed or prosper. If anything there was a concerted effort to ensure that they remained as destitute as possible. Easier to contain them if they are penniless.
It is exactly what the United States tried with "Indian Territory" and reservations. At least the U.S. did it in the mid 1800s when that sort of crap was so common as to pass without comment. (BTW: it blew up in the U.S. face to a large degree when Oklahoma was found to be located on a massive pool of oil).
There was no desire for the Black population to succeed or prosper. If anything there was a concerted effort to ensure that they remained as destitute as possible. Easier to contain them if they are penniless.
Alex Richards
Donor
I think the technical reason was actually to give an excuse to revoke the citizenship of the Blacks by creating a series of 'independent' countries which would then be defined as the legal homelands for any black people left living in South Africa. Forced migration wasn't actually on the table as the Blacks were still needed as a workforce. Meanwhile the Bantustans would be economically dependent on South Africa and firmly in their political sphere (Lesotho was quite possibly an inspiration given how much their economy is dependent on South Africa's).
OTL, this was coupled with utter disregard for the concept of actually creating states that could function, though the diamond mines of Bophuthatswana did mean that their economy was actually doing comparatively well (I think it was doing better than Lesotho at the time) albeit it struggled massively due to the disjointed territory, but I can't think of any reason why some of the Bantustans at least might have been given more territory so as to be at least halfway viable.
OTOH, it seems Verwoerd actually did intend to expand the bantustans into something more marginally economically viable. Was it for the best of reasons? Of course not. But at some level he actually did believe in a somewhat economically workable system. Naturally, however, there would likely still have been economic puppets of rump South Africa, and would still have zero recognition by the outside world.
Of course, when Apartheid ends - and end it will - this is going to cause some big problems - after all, many of the bantustan leaders can now credibly argue that they have somewhat workable governments and economies - at least with Bophuthatswana and Transkei. Expect the transition to democracy to be somewhat bloodier than OTL.
Verwoerd apparently wanted to partition the country.
There's a conspiracy theory that Verwoerd was planning on announcing this on the day he was assassinated. To this day, a copy of the speech he was due to give on the day was never found, so, who knows...
Larger bantustans are difficult, you would probably have to do away with the 1913 Land Act to have any chance of that happening.
There's a conspiracy theory that Verwoerd was planning on announcing this on the day he was assassinated. To this day, a copy of the speech he was due to give on the day was never found, so, who knows...
Larger bantustans are difficult, you would probably have to do away with the 1913 Land Act to have any chance of that happening.
That 'state' was for South Africa's share of the same Tswana/Bechuana people who predominate in Botswana/Bechuanaland just across the nearby border, wasn't it: H'mm, could the two realistically have been merged?
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We have to remember the idea behind these "states":
In short:
1) Deprive the black population of SA citizenship. This entails that they can be evicted back to the "home land" if they aer 'out of line", i.e. supporting ANC
2) As they are now migrant workers in SA (sic!), their salaries can be lowered -> mine profit goes up. We are essentially talking mining here.
3) Put in a "ruler' in the homeland sufficiently tame to keep the population out of politics. i.e. no ANC
4) Keep the home lands sufficiently poor so as not to be attractive to living there.
Crude, but rather smart for its time.
Just to put it in perspective: A bigger mine in SA employes some 25,000+ people. I used to sell to gold mines.
There was (as far as I understood it), not any real political will to make home lands viable. It would be totally counterproductive.
Enlarging them would also be counter-productive. They were supposed to act as a cheap labour pool.
Ivan
In short:
1) Deprive the black population of SA citizenship. This entails that they can be evicted back to the "home land" if they aer 'out of line", i.e. supporting ANC
2) As they are now migrant workers in SA (sic!), their salaries can be lowered -> mine profit goes up. We are essentially talking mining here.
3) Put in a "ruler' in the homeland sufficiently tame to keep the population out of politics. i.e. no ANC
4) Keep the home lands sufficiently poor so as not to be attractive to living there.
Crude, but rather smart for its time.
Just to put it in perspective: A bigger mine in SA employes some 25,000+ people. I used to sell to gold mines.
There was (as far as I understood it), not any real political will to make home lands viable. It would be totally counterproductive.
Enlarging them would also be counter-productive. They were supposed to act as a cheap labour pool.
Ivan
abc123
Banned
Well, with SA pretending that this area is really independent, I don't see why not? In fact, I even see SA encouraging that, as a way to get some sort of international recognition of the situation ( at least from Botswana, Lesoto and Swazi ).
abc123
Banned
I would love to do that, but dumpt gives only this size...
Can you tell me how to do that?
abc123
Banned
The QwaQwa bantustan, and some areas on the southern and eastern border appears to be on the table, but not much else really.
I found a map of the proposed Swaziland extension
Intresting.
But isn't that Ingawuma part predominantly Zulu populated?