AHC: Make sigmatic articles (salat) prominent in all Eastern Catalan dialects

ramones1986

ramones1986

AHC: Make sigmatic article (salat) prominent in all Eastern Catalan dialects

It was said that in the medieval times, parts of Catalan territory where Central Catalan is now spoken once used the sigmatic article (salat). In fact, the evidence is the toponyms of towns like Sant Joan Despí, Sant Just Desvern and Sant Llorenç Savall and surnames like Zaplana (Sa Plana).

Nowadays, sigmatic articles survived in the Balearic Islands and in Costa Brava, as well as the coastal town of Cadaqués.

Example:
640px-SaRieraSalat.JPG

Sa Riera, in the town of Begur

393px-MapaCarb%C3%B3ArticleSalat.jpg

The map where "salat" is used:​

With a POD in the medieval times (12th to 13th century), make the sigmatic article (salat) one of the prominent features of the Eastern Catalan dialects.

Will it affect the development of Standard Catalan?
 
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miguelrj

I didn't quite understand what are "sigmatic articles". I googled it and I got your thread. :) What's "salat"? Could you please clarify?

Anyway, unless we can know what precisely caused this liguistic feature to disappear, it would be wildly speculative to present a PoD.
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

ramones1986 said:
This article in Spanish Wikipedia
or
This article in Catalan-language Wikipedia

(I apologize because these articles have no countrrparts in English Wiki)
Click to expand...
If Ive got it right, most romance languages use a definite article derived from Latin 'ille' (French il/la, Spanish el/la, etc). Whereas these dialects mentioned, and apparently also Sardinian, use articles derived from 'ipsum', ('es', 'sa', Sardinian 'su').

As for what it would take to expand the use, the article linked, if i understood it, talks about being a low prestige dialect, migrations of people, and tourism.

To get it to survive, even expand, probably the biggest thing to do is bump the prestige up. English pronunciation of 'one' as 'wun' started as a joke; modern French pronunciation of 'ois' as 'wah' rather than 'weh' happened during the French revolution, and was a lower class Parisian thing; the Cathtillian lithp is said to have started with a king who had a speech defect.

So. A Catalonian kingdom which had a king who grew up there, possibly in exile, and used that used that dialect could massively enhance the prestige. So, too, could a great Catalan poet. Modern Italian is the language of Dante, literally.

A third possibility would be to have Catalonia/Aragon a major seafaring and mercantile nation (Aragon was the former, but not the later, iirc), and to have most of the seafarers / merchants speak these dialects. Remember modern English is essentially the language of London merchants.

A third possibility would be for protestantism to take hold in the area and the Bible be translated using these dialects. Modern German is Luther's German. Scots doesnt exist as a seperate language because Knox didnt commission/use a Scots bible, but rather used English ones.


By the way. Thank you for the post. I had never heard of these usages before, and I LOVE linguistic trivia.
 
ramones1986

ramones1986

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
If I've got it right, most romance languages use a definite article derived from Latin 'ille' (French il/la, Spanish el/la, etc). Whereas these dialects mentioned, and apparently also Sardinian, use articles derived from 'ipsum', ('es', 'sa', Sardinian 'su').
Click to expand...
:)

A third possibility would be for protestantism to take hold in the area and the Bible be translated using these dialects.
Click to expand...
I think it's quite impossible for Protestantism to took hold in Catalonia, but translating bible into "salat" Catalan is possible

By the way. Thank you for the post. I had never heard of these usages before, and I LOVE linguistic trivia.
Click to expand...
No problem.
 

miguelrj

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
If the Cathtillian lithp is said to have started with a king who had a speech defect.
Click to expand...

That would be extraordinary.
The fact that Rio de Janeiro Portuguese shares some traits with European Portuguese is often explained by the influences of the Portuguese Corte when it's been based in that city. Considering that that only happen for a dozen years, it's quite remarkable.

ramones1986 said:
I think it's quite impossible for Protestantism to took hold in Catalonia,
Click to expand...
With a PoD as early as 1200 who knows when, where and how Protestantism will take off? ;)
 
ramones1986

ramones1986

Here's a sample of this alternate Standard Catalan:
Pare nostre que esteu en el Cel,
Sigui santificat es vostre nom,
Vingui a nosaltres es vostre regne,
faci's sa vostra voluntat
així a sa terra com és fa en el Cel.

Es nostre pa de cada dia,
Doreu-nos, Senyor, es dia d'avui,
I perdoneu ses nostres culpes,
així com nosaltres perdonen ets deutors
I no permiteu que nosaltres caiguen en sa tentació
ans déslliurcu-nos de qualsevol mal.
Amen.
Click to expand...
 
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