North American Aerospace/Defense Company Cars?

Several European and Japanese aerospace and defense companies have created automotive divisions. BMW is probably the most famous example as the company was forced to end aircraft engine production, but there have been others. In the UK this was done by Vickers, Rolls-Royce, and Bristol; in the Czech Republic by Skoda; in Japan by Mitsubishi, Fuji, Kawasaki; and in Sweden by Saab. This seems to be a rather common practice in Europe and Japan, but has never been replicated in North America. What would it have taken for Avro to have made a literal Avrocar, the Galaxy to have been a Lockheed sports car, or for Pratt & Whitney to have become an American Rolls-Royce?

It's really not practical in North America, given how the Automobile Industry here was established well before you'd get the chance to do that, and with less dislocation, but the very early development of large auto manufacturers, it's a very competitive market.

Instead in North America, you usually see the opposite happen, with automakers diversifying into defense or aerospace manufacturing.

Hell, Kaiser-Frazier is the only real example of a defense firm/industrial conglomerate starting automobile happening in North America, and that only became really successful after they bought out Willys.

So, weaken Ford or General Motors, and you could maybe get North American producing automobiles.

BAe also bought the privatised Rover Group but it appears to have been mostly an asset stripping manoeuvre rather than a legitimate move into the automotive market. I've actually been wondering about what might have happened if they had attempted to make a genuine go of owning Rover but that's a thought for another thread.

You might see some of the second tier aerospace companies move first into the parts market where there is much more space for new entrants and then expand from their.

Thoresby said:

You might see some of the second tier aerospace companies move first into the parts market where there is much more space for new entrants and then expand from their.

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How about one of the defence contractors buying one of the car companies? One of the theories that people saw for BAe buying the Rover Group, before it was seen that they'd merely recognised a good deal and were simply going to sell it off in parts, was that with the Berlin Wall coming down and the end of the Cold War looming, and with it the bonanza of defence spending, they were looking for alternate revenue streams for when the peace dividend kicked in.

There are two examples of successful military company designed vehicles becoming successful domestic vehicles. One is the Hummer, though GM took over making the public version. The other is Grumman's cargo vans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Olson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV

One old aircraft company, Ford, made cars. Grumman made step-vans and fire engines ( The Fire-Cat) as well as canoes. No comparison to the British Beardmore Company, which built airplanes, aircraft engines, aircraft carriers, battleships and passenger liners, trains, London taxis and motorcycles, in addition to their foundry work. A Canadian company, Bombardier, is building 3-wheelers in addition to some snowy things.

I agree that given the North American market you are much more likely to the tradition automakers move into military production. Hell, aerospace by the car makers is more likely that the other way around.

That said, I'd say that the best chance for it to happen actually isn't so much any time in the past as over the next couple of decades. The automakers are struggling by any standards and the expectations along with the tech involved in car making are changing. With alternative energy, increased efficiency and automation on the horizon along with buyers very interested in features that are more like electronic gadgets than traditional auto features (I'm thinking about how much discussion there is lately about user facing onboard computers for example) it's probably as good a time as there has been for a new entrant since WWII.

For that matter, Tesla, when taken in combination with SpaceX (only loosely related at the moment, but as long as Musk is in control anything could happen IMO) might well end up part of a firm that's all of a new defence, aerospace and automaking conglomerate. SpaceX is certainly well positioned to move into military contracting (though it's hard to judge how interested they are) and Tesla has some things that could well appeal to the military and/or be applicable in aerospace (though the fact that they seem to be falling behind the competition in terms of automation could become a serious problem even for their existing line, let alone these markets).

Just Leo said:

One old aircraft company, Ford, made cars.

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...That's an interesting way of putting it.

Didn't Cadillac have their own aerospace defense division that was bought out in the 1980s by Textron?

Alamo said:

Didn't Cadillac have their own aerospace defense division that was bought out in the 1980s by Textron?

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General Motors bought Hughes Aerospace in June 1985, eventually selling off the pieces (at considerable profit, it should be pointed out) between 1995 and 2003 to Raytheon, CitiCorp, Boeing and Newscorp.

HondaJet has a nice R&D and production facility in the United States.





Edit: Their freaking shirt costs forty bucks, might as well buy the damn plane (ha ha...)

Might the difference between European/Japanese and North American corporate diversification be due to which industries were more powerful (and had the factories and knowledge needed for mass production) when the other came to have high demand? For example, Europe and Japan had large defense industries during the early 1900s (and in Europe large aircraft producers) before cars became popular there, while North America had large car companies before armaments and commercial/military aircraft were required?

from http://www.aerofiles.com/_ford.html

15-P 1932 = 2pClwM; 115hp Ford V-8; span: 34'0" length: 14'0" range: 500 (approximations from 1936 plans). Henry Karcher. Tailless delta-wing experiment with rear-mounted motor, and a driveshaft running between the seats. Metal-clad fuselage, fabric-covered wings; full-panted gear. POP: 1 [X999E] (some photos show [C402], which was a dummy registration). Made a few short test flights, but was damaged in an accident, and placed in storage. Although the license for this "flying wing" project was briefly renewed in 1936, there is no company record of further development.

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(Basic info also at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_15-P )

An aerospace company may be the route to an American Grand Marque. Such a company would have the resources to custom-build ultra-high-end components and use cutting edge engineering. Perhaps this could be teamed with a motor racing division like the French Matra company.

Riain said:

An aerospace company may be the route to an American Grand Marque. Such a company would have the resources to custom-build ultra-high-end components and use cutting edge engineering. Perhaps this could be teamed with a motor racing division like the French Matra company.

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A few companies involved in gas turbine production lent engines and expertise to the Howmet TX, the only turbine powered car to have ever won a race. Rather than advertising on their mastery of inline engine technologies and streamlining, perhaps such a company could advertise their car as using the latest Jet Age technologies and materials.

If implemented in my timeline it could even lead to a rather unique take on the Hummer. Instead of seeing a military utility vehicle overcoming the rugged terrain of the Middle East, people might come to admire the speed and looks of supersonic military and civilian aircraft and their heroic lifestyles. A Second Korean War ace, commercial airline pilot, or spaceplane pilot could help advertise cars built using the same technologies on the amazing air and spacecraft themselves.

Chrysler used to have a defense division, was sold to General Dynamics back in 82:
http://www.nytimes.com/1982/02/20/business/general-dynamics-buys-chrysler-tank-division.html

I wonder what a Lockheed/Martin Firenza 5th gen Stealth car would be like, what it would cost, what maintenance would cost, when it could enter service. At least, all passengers would be carried internally.

Has everybody forgotten Brewster....?

They built wagons, cars, airplanes, & boats. And managed to go broke, thanks to idiots in charge.

phx1138 said:

Has everybody forgotten Brewster....?

They built wagons, cars, airplanes, & boats. And managed to go broke, thanks to idiots in charge.

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Thanks for this startling info. I never realized that Brewster had such close ties with Rolls Royce and Edsel Ford. Edsel's Brewster sold for $198,000 in 2008, original and unrestored. The battery was probably dead too. I wonder if the trademark Brewster grille, carried over to the '58 Edsel, was the cause of the sales problems for the model. Should it have had a heart shape instead?