AHC: Baltic somebody's Mare Nostrum
- Thread starter Dorozhand
- Start date
Kalmar Union survives and centralized into a United Kingdom of Scandinavia. the UKS snags Northern Germany during the 30 Years War, and the remainder of the Baltic Coast in various wars with Poland-Lithuania and Russia.
Alex Richards
Donor
Cnut's successors manage to keep Norway, Denmark and southern Sweden together and build from there?
Max Sinister
Banned
This happens in the Gurps AE TL "Shikaku-Mon" with Sweden. Not only that, but it lasts until the present.
Not sure why Sweden is a more obvious example then Russia or Germany. Here's a quick scenario for Russia, with a PoD sometime in the eighteenth century or so. Prussia loses/never gets Silesia and becomes a weak client, its Baltic coast dotted with Russian naval bases. Sweden also experiences some troubles, perhaps some kind of nasty civil war, from which Russia profits. Instead of (or in addition to) congress Poland there is congress Sweden. After that all you need is for Russia to beat Denmark up pretty badly and it controls the entire Baltic coast.
Alex Richards
Donor
I think it's because at one Point Sweden almost had made the Baltic a Mare Nostrum. They had modern Sweden, Finland, Ingria, Estonia-Livonia and part of Pomerania, and at pretty much the same time the Polish branch of the family attempted to create a Personal Union with Sweden.
Mabye a stronger Poland-Lithuania could have dominated the Baltic Sea through a conquest of the rest of the Baltic and parts of Prussia.
It very well could have been the dominant sea power but the real challenge is finding a reason that the country would show interest in the whole thing given its historical lack thereof.
The Russians crush Sweden even more than they did in OTL during the Napoleonic Wars and annex all of Sweden and not just Finland.
Technically it was the Swedish branch which was kicked from Swedish throne; sadly they couldn't accept that and retained the title
And Sigismund III as the king of PLC and king of Sweden was pretty close - if you completely change his personality (as in, make him not a catholic religious nutjob and not a fanboy of HRE and give him some common sense) he may somehow retain both thrones and then maybe his successor can grab the remaining coast in the equivalent of 30 year war. There is not much remaining after all.
Hmm, it would be an interesting timeline I think - what if Sigismund III had the capability and personality of Gustavus Adolphus? Or say, Sigismund dies early and Gustavus is elected as the king of PLC? Though it could easily get very, very wanky
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Alex Richards
Donor
Technically it was the Swedish branch which was kicked from Swedish throne; sadly they couldn't accept that and retained the title
And Sigismund III as the king of PLC and king of Sweden was pretty close - if you completely change his personality (as in, make him not a catholic religious nutjob and not a fanboy of HRE and give him some common sense) he may somehow retain both thrones and then maybe his successor can grab the remaining coast in the equivalent of 30 year war. There is not much remaining after all.
Hmm, it would be an interesting timeline I think - what if Sigismund III had the capability and personality of Gustavus Adolphus? Or say, Sigismund dies early and Gustavus is elected as the king of PLC? Though it could easily get very, very wanky
Wasn't Ducal Prussia still technically a fief of the Polish crown at this point? Because that seems like a pretty good way into dominance of the rest of the German Baltic area, and then you've just got Denmark.
Yes, it was until 1657; actually they could became part of PLC in 1618 when the original Prussian Hohenzollern family line expired ; however, when the son-in law of the last prussian Hohenzollern, who was Prince of Brandenburg asked if he could became prince of Prussia Sigismund III and PLC Parliament basically answered "sure, whatever" and thus new Duchy of Prussia was born
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Yes, it was until 1657; actually they could became part of PLC in 1618 when the original Prussian Hohenzollern family line expired ; however, when the son-in law of the last prussian Hohenzollern, who was Prince of Brandenburg asked if he could became prince of Prussia Sigismund III and PLC Parliament basically answered "sure, whatever" and thus new Duchy of Prussia was born
Which, in hindsight, proved to be one of the most moronic of stupid moves of Polish Sejm.
Kind of unfair to judge it as stupid unless there was some reason to believe it would cause trouble at the time.
I'm not saying the Sejm wasn't at best short sighted, but its hardly stupid to not use hindsight you don't have.
Hmm, I have an idea for a POD for Gustavus Adolphus king of PLC if anybody would be interested:
December 1620 - mad nobleman Piekarski succeeds in his assassination attempt against Sigismund III, taking both the life of king and his son Vladislaus.
1621 election is held in the most nervous atmosphere up to date. Sultan Osman II has declared a holy war against the PLC, last year saw the defeat of Polish army at Cecora, death of Grand Crown Hetman and Great Chancellor Stefan Zolkiewski and captive of Field Crown Hetman Stanislaw Koniecpolski, Tatar raiders reaching Lvov and finally the death of king Sigismund and his son. Winter sejm decides that the election will be held not as customary in Warsaw, but in Lvov, so that the massed nobility may react to potential invasion.
Unusually, the election brings few candidates. Nobody really is that inclined to became a king of a country which will soon face a humungus Ottoman invasion. Usual French candidate is not present for Osman II refused to cease war if one is elected; chances of any Habsburs candidate are blown by the brutal repressions against Czechs after the Battle of Biala Gora. In this, Axel Gustafsson Oxenstierna arrives proposing candidature of Swedish king Gustavus Adolphus. While usually a Luteran candidature would be problematic, election held in Lvov increases participation of Orthodox nobility who would be happy to see a non-catholic on the throne. Gustavus moreover promises to bring 40 000 soldiers for the Turkish war - a proposal which is received very well by assembled nobles. What swings the scale is the withdrawal of internal candidature of Jan Karol Chodkiewicz, Grand Lithuanian Hetman and for the time being commander -in-chief of commonwealth army, who switches to support Gustavus. Thus on may 3rd 1621 the first luteran rex Poloniae, magnus dux Lithuaniae, Russiae, Prussiae, Masoviae, Samogitiae, Livoniaeque, Smolenscie, Severiae, Czernichoviaeque is elected
Thought about the POD? I think it would require GA to win some convincing victory in 1610s against Russia to reinforce his credibility as a commander to be more plausible.
December 1620 - mad nobleman Piekarski succeeds in his assassination attempt against Sigismund III, taking both the life of king and his son Vladislaus.
1621 election is held in the most nervous atmosphere up to date. Sultan Osman II has declared a holy war against the PLC, last year saw the defeat of Polish army at Cecora, death of Grand Crown Hetman and Great Chancellor Stefan Zolkiewski and captive of Field Crown Hetman Stanislaw Koniecpolski, Tatar raiders reaching Lvov and finally the death of king Sigismund and his son. Winter sejm decides that the election will be held not as customary in Warsaw, but in Lvov, so that the massed nobility may react to potential invasion.
Unusually, the election brings few candidates. Nobody really is that inclined to became a king of a country which will soon face a humungus Ottoman invasion. Usual French candidate is not present for Osman II refused to cease war if one is elected; chances of any Habsburs candidate are blown by the brutal repressions against Czechs after the Battle of Biala Gora. In this, Axel Gustafsson Oxenstierna arrives proposing candidature of Swedish king Gustavus Adolphus. While usually a Luteran candidature would be problematic, election held in Lvov increases participation of Orthodox nobility who would be happy to see a non-catholic on the throne. Gustavus moreover promises to bring 40 000 soldiers for the Turkish war - a proposal which is received very well by assembled nobles. What swings the scale is the withdrawal of internal candidature of Jan Karol Chodkiewicz, Grand Lithuanian Hetman and for the time being commander -in-chief of commonwealth army, who switches to support Gustavus. Thus on may 3rd 1621 the first luteran rex Poloniae, magnus dux Lithuaniae, Russiae, Prussiae, Masoviae, Samogitiae, Livoniaeque, Smolenscie, Severiae, Czernichoviaeque is elected
Thought about the POD? I think it would require GA to win some convincing victory in 1610s against Russia to reinforce his credibility as a commander to be more plausible.
