Post Punk WI: Ian Curtis lives?

What if Ian Curtis didn't commit suicide? Let's say he delays his suicide attempt so when his wife returns he decides against it. What does this mean for him, his wife and Joy Division?

There are some points to consider:

• Joy Division's sound: They began to add more synths/melodica during Closer and if you listen to In a Lonely Place (the last song they ever wrote), you could feel the crippling darkness permeating that song. Would their sound become more synth-orientated and even darker?
• It was clear Natalie (Ian's wife) planned to divorce him due to Ian's infidelity with fan Annik. If this happens, will this serve only to cause another breakdown/suicide?
• Joy Division's US tour. Ian was terrified of flying. Would the tour still go on ahead as planned? Ian pretended to be jovial about the tour as not to alarm his bandmates
• Ian's epilepsy was legendary; could he still tour with such a condition?
• Would New Order still form? (Albeit later than OTL)

That has to be one of the great "what ifs?" of music....FWIW, here are my own thoughts(based off of Nihilist's questions in the OP):
--As far as their sounds went, Joy Division was already headed in the direction of utilizing more synthesizers; I doubt there would've been much of a change (w/the exception of Ian Curtis and not Bernard Sumner on lead vocals). Case in point: listen to "Blue Monday" and try to picture Ian on vocals for that song.

--By that time(May 1980), Ian's marriage to Deborah Curtis was all-but-dead (no pun intended there)....given Ian's ill health at the time (combination of epilepsy & depression IIRC) who's to say whether he doesn't commit suicide at a later date

--As for their tour...yes, Ian was, according to reports back then, terrified of flying, yet given the band's growing success (at the time, they had just wrapped up Closer and one of their later tunes, "Love Will Tear Us Apart", was starting to gather steam on the charts), I'm not too sure that Ian Curtis wouldn't have gone to tour with the rest of the band

--There's a video on Youtube(I'll see if I can find the video and post it here) where former band member Peter Hook discusses Ian's epilepsy and its' effect on the band, especially on tour; odds are, at some point down the road, the band would've likely had to make a decision as to whether Curtis stays on as lead vocalist

--Would New Order still form? Yes; during Joy Division's time, the band members had all agreed that, if one of them left or died or quit the band or whatever, Joy Division would cease to exist. We know from OTL that months after Curtis's suicide, the band did re-form as New Order (w/the addition of Gillian Gilbert to the band's lineup)....the question here would be whether the band re-forms as New Order at a later date than OTL and, given the other items above, odds are they would.

FWIW, this question sparks another question....assume Ian Curtis doesn't commit suicide in May 1980 and Joy Division continues on; what happens then? I ask this for two principle reasons: (1) the effect on the music scene in Manchester, England in the 1980's and (2) the effect it could potentially have had on Manchester's other great band, The Smiths.

Hey! Leave The Smiths alone!

How about what would happen to Factory?

Romantic Nihilist said:

Hey! Leave The Smiths alone!

How about what would happen to Factory?

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In this case, you almost have to mention them, Nihilist, because of where they, Joy Division and New Order were from (i.e. the Salford-Manchester area) and because, unless I'm mistaken, one of two future members of The Smiths were at the same Sex Pistols concert in June 1976 that Peter Hook and Bernard Sumner went to, so there's a few reason right there to include them...

As to Factory Records...there's a 10-pt set of videos over on Youtube (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4,
Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9 and Part 10) that pretty much shows the history of Factory from start to finish but to answer your question, Nihilist, if Ian Curtis doesn't commit suicide and Joy Division continues, Factory Records might've stayed around longer, become a major English independent label (not that they weren't that already in 1980) and not become dependant on the success of New Order throughout the 80's (which is partly the reason Factory went belly-up in the early 90's).

I wonder how this would affect other bands? The Sound comes to mind.

That's a good question; I actually had to look up info on The Sound so that I'd know who they were...

As for the question...that's hard-to-say in a sense 'cause The Sound were based out of London, so any effect and/or influence on other bands would've been limited on the surface unless there's another seminal "Sex Pistols" moment(i.e. The Sound decide to play in Manchester or Liverpool at some point in 79' or 80')....

FWIW, Nihilist, this would make one helluva TL to do in the future, wouldn't it?

Webster said:

to answer your question, Nihilist, if Ian Curtis doesn't commit suicide and Joy Division continues, Factory Records might've stayed around longer, become a major English independent label (not that they weren't that already in 1980) and not become dependant on the success of New Order throughout the 80's (which is partly the reason Factory went belly-up in the early 90's).

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So in this TL Factory Records pretty much plays the role that Creation Records did in OTL? That would be interesting.

flippikat said:

So in this TL Factory Records pretty much plays the role that Creation Records did in OTL? That would be interesting.

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The potential's there, Flippikat...think of it this way, if Joy Division doesn't break up in may 1980, then odds are Factory Records becomes in this TL the Creation Records of OTL. In my first post in this thread, I mentioned The Smiths...here's an interesting question to use: assume Factory Records grows in strength, based on the success of Joy Division. 1982-1983 rolls around and word begins to spread about another Manchester-based band, The Smiths.

The question in this instance is...what if The Smiths sign with Factory Records out of Manchester instead of the London-based Rough Trade label?

Webster said:

The potential's there, Flippikat...think of it this way, if Joy Division doesn't break up in may 1980, then odds are Factory Records becomes in this TL the Creation Records of OTL. In my first post in this thread, I mentioned The Smiths...here's an interesting question to use: assume Factory Records grows in strength, based on the success of Joy Division. 1982-1983 rolls around and word begins to spread about another Manchester-based band, The Smiths.

The question in this instance is...what if The Smiths sign with Factory Records out of Manchester instead of the London-based Rough Trade label?

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Not sure.. but if they end up being produced by Martin Hannett instead of Stephen Street then their sound will be different.

That has a flow-on effect on Stephen Street's career, maybe he doesn't get to work with Blur (or only briefly) as they don't recognise him from his work with The Smiths.

flippikat said:

Not sure.. but if they end up being produced by Martin Hannett instead of Stephen Street then their sound will be different.

That has a flow-on effect on Stephen Street's career, maybe he doesn't get to work with Blur (or only briefly) as they don't recognise him from his work with The Smiths.

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Hadn't thought about that one, Flip....let me throw this one in the air: what if, after signing The Smiths to the Factory label, Tony Wilson & Co. (i.e. Tony Wilson, Rob Gretton and Alan Erasmus) decide to bring Street in to produce instead of Hannett OR they bring Street in and keep him working with The Smiths; could that have happened?

Webster said:

Hadn't thought about that one, Flip....let me throw this one in the air: what if, after signing The Smiths to the Factory label, Tony Wilson & Co. (i.e. Tony Wilson, Rob Gretton and Alan Erasmus) decide to bring Street in to produce instead of Hannett OR they bring Street in and keep him working with The Smiths; could that have happened?

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I dunno.. would Hannett producing the Smiths been necessarily bad?

He may have challenged Marr to use more soundscapes, and the rest of the band to take a more (err) "dance" direction - resulting in MORE songs like 'The Queen is Dead' & 'How Soon is Now?'.

You could have Joy Division & The Smiths as the twin pillars of an indie-dance scene in the 1980s.

If they do part ways with Hannett, there are other possibilities for producer - John Leckie for instance, maybe he works with The Smiths from 1985 on after they fall out with Hannett?

flippikat said:

I dunno.. would Hannett producing the Smiths been necessarily bad?

He may have challenged Marr to use more soundscapes, and the rest of the band to take a more (err) "dance" direction - resulting in MORE songs like 'The Queen is Dead' & 'How Soon is Now?'.

You could have Joy Division & The Smiths as the twin pillars of an indie-dance scene in the 1980s.

If they do part ways with Hannett, there are other possibilities for producer - John Leckie for instance, maybe he works with The Smiths from 1985 on after they fall out with Hannett?

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That's a good question; if Hannett produces The Smiths' music, you definitely can see Johnny Marr using more soundscapes/synths' in his guitar work...would it have produced more tunes along the lines of "The Queen Is Dead" and "How Soon Is Now?"? It very well could've (as an aside, the first Smiths song I ever heard was ironically "How Soon Is Now?"...I heard that, thought "holy ----, this is good music! And started listening to their other works...)

In my opening post I mentioned something along those lines...quoting:

FWIW, this question sparks another question....assume Ian Curtis doesn't commit suicide in May 1980 and Joy Division continues on; what happens then? I ask this for two principle reasons: (1) the effect on the music scene in Manchester, England in the 1980's and (2) the effect it could potentially have had on Manchester's other great band, The Smiths.

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The bolded part is what I had mentioned in regards to the second half of your post...even given the preponderance of British record labels being based out of London, if Factory had snagged both Joy Division & The Smiths, Manchester could've become the home of British indie music in the 80's and early 90's...

As for Leckie...his big break as a record producer was in 89' w/The Stone Roses; I kinda' doubt that changes unless Hannett leaves and Stephen Street doesn't stay with The Smiths....

Webster said:

That's a good question; if Hannett produces The Smiths' music, you definitely can see Johnny Marr using more soundscapes/synths' in his guitar work...would it have produced more tunes along the lines of "The Queen Is Dead" and "How Soon Is Now?"? It very well could've (as an aside, the first Smiths song I ever heard was ironically "How Soon Is Now?"...I heard that, thought "holy ----, this is good music! And started listening to their other works...)

In my opening post I mentioned something along those lines...quoting:


The bolded part is what I had mentioned in regards to the second half of your post...even given the preponderance of British record labels being based out of London, if Factory had snagged both Joy Division & The Smiths, Manchester could've become the home of British indie music in the 80's and early 90's...

As for Leckie...his big break as a record producer was in 89' w/The Stone Roses; I kinda' doubt that changes unless Hannett leaves and Stephen Street doesn't stay with The Smiths....

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There's always the chance that The Smiths go from Hannett directly to Leckie.. He had produced other indie bands in the 1980s.. Felt & The Fall immediately spring to mind.

I agree that the powerbase of indie would shift heavily towards Manchester in the 1980s in this timeline. apparently towards the end of The Smiths, Marr wanted to be more musically adventurous and Morrissey less so.. Striking the balance might have been easier with a different producer.

Back to Joy Division.. With all the health issues around Ian touring, would the rest of the band considered a 'Brian Wilson'-type situation where Ian stays home & writes songs?

that's probably the easiest solution, and it might lead to a future career for Ian in producing other bands.

What about the Madchester genre?

If we're gonna talk about Manchester..

flippikat said:

Back to Joy Division.. With all the health issues around Ian touring, would the rest of the band considered a 'Brian Wilson'-type situation where Ian stays home & writes songs?

that's probably the easiest solution, and it might lead to a future career for Ian in producing other bands.

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That's probably the likeliest of scenarios: after a long discussion with the rest of the band, Ian Curtis decides to step aside from the lead vocals, with Bernard Sumner taking those duties and Gillian Gilbert stepping into the band; in that event, it's easy to see Curtis becoming a well-liked producer and songwriter; even though, by most accounts, he had a large jerkass streak in him, it was more 'jerk with a heart of gold' than outright 'jerkass'. Given enough time, he very well could've been the British equivalent to the Beach Boys' Brian Wilson.

Romantic Nihilist said:

What about the Madchester genre?

If we're gonna talk about Manchester..

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Wasn't it a long-running thing in music circles about New Order essentially bankrolling Factory Records, which in turn allowed Factory to expand and push-start the whole 'Madchester' scene vis-a-vis the Hacienda and all?

Romantic Nihilist said:

What about the Madchester genre?

If we're gonna talk about Manchester..

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Might happen earlier. If a Hannett-produced Smiths and Joy Division dominate the early-mid 1980s, it's likely that some band will take the sonic adventurism & grooves and put a less brooding/depressing spin on it - whether that happens before the rise of Acid House is the big question.

[edit] I forgot about the Hacienda! that might provide the vehicle for Factory bands to start writing more and more for the dancefloor - perhaps brightening the lyrical content along the way. perhaps. (I'm aware that New Order songs in OTL were darker than the Happy Mondays.. Yet they still got played in the club.)

The other possibility is that some sort of optimistic Britpop or classic rock revivalism catches-on in some indie scenes as a reaction to all that "depressing indie dance". late-80s Britpop, anyone?

There's always the possibility; even given the vagaries of the British music scene in the late 70's-early 80's, odds are most of the major producers (Martin Hannett, Stephen Street, John Leckie, etc.) knew enough of the others' respective works to at least consider the possibility. I was listening to Unknown Pleasures late last night and for a few moments could almost imagine Street producing it. As for the possible rise of late 80's Britpop...I could see that happening if bands like Oasis and Black Grape form a few years sooner in this TL than in OTL.

Here's another question that comes to mind: we know from the history of British music in OTL that it helped influence a good deal of the American music scene; as I was reading the Dirty Laundry TL thread, I couldn't help but come back to this one and think, "What if Joy Division has a successful US tour in mid-to-late 1980? What would the effects on American music be?"

note: here's a brief video of Tony Wilson interviewing The Smiths back in the mid-1980's; watching the video, it's still one of the great mysteries as to why Tony Wilson, who was pretty good at spotting music talent (i.e. Joy Division & New Order, A Certain Ratio, Happy Mondays, etc.) let the other great 80's indie rock band slip through his fingers and into Rough Trade's grasp...

If they did somehow survive a US tour, I reckon they'd get Mike Hedges (The Cure, Manic Street Preachers) if they couldn't get Martin Hannett.

Romantic Nihilist said:

If they did somehow survive a US tour, I reckon they'd get Mike Hedges (The Cure, Manic Street Preachers) if they couldn't get Martin Hannett.

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I hadn't thought about whether they would've survived a US tour in this TL... in our TL, by the time of their US tour, Ian's health wasn't good at all due to both his epilepsy and depression; had the U.S. media gotten wind of that while they were on tour....why am I not seeing a pretty picture there?

As for bringing in Mike Hedges...I suspect had the tour been a success, they might have brought him in instead of Martin Hannett if they couldn't bring in either Stephen Street or John Leckie; odds are, given Tony Wilson's personality, he'd probably try to stick it out w/Hannett as long as possible before bringing in a new producer...