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Old August 24th, 2013, 10:42 AM
Sian Sian is offline
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Stronger Othodox Church

inspired by this thread I started considering something

How strong can the Othodox church become in eastern europe? ... could it in any way grab everything east of HRE, that is, Croatia, Hungary and Poland? ... could it prehaps even push further?
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Old August 25th, 2013, 06:17 AM
Sian Sian is offline
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noone up for taking a stab at it?
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Old August 25th, 2013, 07:19 AM
DanMcCollum DanMcCollum is offline
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I think its going to take a weaker Holy Roman Empire. The Poles converted to Catholicism because the HRE was breathing down their neck, and they wanted to convert to legitimize themselves. I believe Hungary was a similar situation; it was the HRE that finally beat back the Magyars under Otto the Great and, as such, the Hungarians accepted conversion from the Catholics.

A weaker HRE would likely see the Eastern Orthodox Church spread throughout all of Eastern Europe; but that would be a very different Europe.
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Old August 25th, 2013, 03:20 PM
Elfwine Elfwine is offline
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Hungary might have gone either way, Croatia is probably the same - but Poland really isn't well positioned for Byzantium to influence.

Looking at the situation of around AD 1000 (when Hungary converted) to possibly up to Bela II (I am not sure how deep rooted Hungarian Catholicism was in his day, and he was definitely Byzantine-influenced). Go back earlier to before Otto the Great and we have another story - but a very different map politically.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 01:31 AM
The Ubbergeek The Ubbergeek is offline
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I wonder if the Byzantine empire had thrived (better), like holding Sicilia, maybe you'd see an Orthodoxe minority there at least.

One wonder how the Popes and Catholics would have reacted to Orthodoxy in the very Italy... with annoying to say the least, probably.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 01:56 AM
Evilprodigy Evilprodigy is offline
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Originally Posted by The Ubbergeek View Post
I wonder if the Byzantine empire had thrived (better), like holding Sicilia, maybe you'd see an Orthodoxe minority there at least.

One wonder how the Popes and Catholics would have reacted to Orthodoxy in the very Italy... with annoying to say the least, probably.
Sicily wasn't considered part of Italy until the Aragonese/Spanish got Naples. Back then it was considered as a separate region due to having a seperate geography and history. This dates back to Roman times when Sicily was a separate province from Italy. It was further reinforced by the Byzantine holdings there and the Arab invasions that created a unique language and culture in Sicily that to this day is still very different from mainland Italian.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 01:58 AM
Elfwine Elfwine is offline
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Originally Posted by The Ubbergeek View Post
I wonder if the Byzantine empire had thrived (better), like holding Sicilia, maybe you'd see an Orthodoxe minority there at least.

One wonder how the Popes and Catholics would have reacted to Orthodoxy in the very Italy... with annoying to say the least, probably.
Orthodoxy was - and I'm reasonably sure still is - in southern Italy and Sicily. Magna Graecia.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 02:03 AM
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We need more Independent Sicily TLs.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Elfwine View Post
Orthodoxy was - and I'm reasonably sure still is - in southern Italy and Sicily. Magna Graecia.
I think they are Greek-rite Catholic, at least officially. Not sure how much theological attachment to Greece continues.

As to the OP, a weaker HRE or just a less immediate conversion imperative on the frontier might do it. It's always seemed a bit baffling to me that the Latin church should suddenly, and pretty much without precedent, should come up with the idea of invading people's countries to convert them. If that went spectacularly pear-shaped early on, maybe they would limit themselves to a peaceful mission, giving the orthodox church more time to compete in northerly regions. I'm with Elfwine that it's hard to see Poland going orthodox, but with a little more time and Russian influence, Scandinavia might.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 11:14 AM
Clandango Clandango is offline
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Would the Czar and Patriarchs still be basically Caliphs?
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Old August 26th, 2013, 12:27 PM
eliphas8 eliphas8 is online now
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Would the Czar and Patriarchs still be basically Caliphs?
How where they caliphs otl?
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Old August 26th, 2013, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Sian View Post
inspired by this thread I started considering something

How strong can the Othodox church become in eastern europe? ... could it in any way grab everything east of HRE, that is, Croatia, Hungary and Poland? ... could it prehaps even push further?
About Croatia, you need one of these two things:

a) either prince Zdeslav ( killed in conspiracy 879 ) stay alive ( he put church in Croatia under Patriarch of Constantinople, his sucessor Branimir put church under Rome again ) and rules longer

b) much stronger Byzantium that has much stronger influence on Croatia
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Old August 26th, 2013, 06:44 PM
Cryptic Cryptic is offline
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Originally Posted by Sian View Post
How strong can the Othodox church become in eastern europe? ... could it in any way grab everything east of HRE, that is, Croatia, Hungary and Poland? ... could it prehaps even push further?
I am thinking Finland would be a good candidate. Not only is it close to Russia, but eastern Karelians and other Finnic groups are Orthodox. Also, Lithuania, the last pagan nation in Europe was converted to Catholicism by force. It is possible that Orthodox Russians could have pre empted the Tuetonic Knights with a coerced "carrot and stick" conversion campaign of their own.


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Originally Posted by Elfwine View Post
Orthodoxy was - and I'm reasonably sure still is - in southern Italy and Sicily. Magna Graecia.
Though it was (is?) practiced by Italo Albanians who relocated in Italy, I think most of the Italo Albanians have become eastern rite catholics.

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Originally Posted by Elfwine View Post
Looking at the situation of around AD 1000 (when Hungary converted) to possibly up to Bela II (I am not sure how deep rooted Hungarian Catholicism was in his day, and he was definitely Byzantine-influenced).
I recall reading that despite the fact that Hungary was obstensibly Catholic and thus subject to the call for crusades, the various crusades did not receive much spontaneous support or recruits when crossing Hungarian territory. Slovakia also retained a Byzantine influence and gradually drifted into the Catholic orbit.

Last edited by Cryptic; August 26th, 2013 at 07:06 PM..
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