Religious: a large conversion FROM Islam

DISCLAIMER; While I admit being critical of Islam and not very patient with some traditionalists let's say, this thread is NOT Islam bashing intended.



There is some clichés and tropes in alternate history. One seems to be - due to the Shariah rules on apostates... - that once muslim, always muslim. that is it, a culture, a nation, minority etc who converts to Islam will remains muslims forever (with perhaps the unique Albanian case, and even then, its more like secularisation and rise of atheism, who was also quite... condoned).

So, here is a simple challenge.

Have a culture... nation (ethnocultural sense).. region.. minority.. etc, yadda yadda, who convert en masse from Islam, to another religion (albanian cases fine).
CATCH; it have to not be forced upside down, albeit the people agreeing with the top-leaders is fine. It have to be agreed and willed, or just happens as if.

By example, maybe something like the 'Dalits Buddhism' movement, who pushed in India for the conversion of Hindus to Buddhism to "escape the castes". Or a good group of albanians converting back to Christianism to get western help; maybe callign them 'Skanderbergists(?)'.
 
Sicily or a more successful Bahai faith?

I forgot Sicilly and the Conversos case, but well, not sure if that count - it was coherticion(spelling) who made christians of muslims in Spain/Portugal and Sicilly...

I want the thing to be willing, accepted. Not the King making the peoples convert - or else.
 
I forgot Sicilly and the Conversos case, but well, not sure if that count - it was coherticion(spelling) who made christians of muslims in Spain/Portugal and Sicilly...

I want the thing to be willing, accepted. Not the King making the peoples convert - or else.

There are not very many cases of large conversations that aren't "the king making the peoples convert".

People don't like giving up their old beliefs. Islam, Christianity, paganism, whatever.
 
There are not very many cases of large conversations that aren't "the king making the peoples convert".

People don't like giving up their old beliefs. Islam, Christianity, paganism, whatever.

Well, not in the sense of the King's authority breathing at your neck and 'suggesting' you to convert - which actually happened less than we thought at times, though. Like indeed muslims in Malays islands, at start at least.

I know, but it happens at times the peoples adopt - and even enthusiastly - a new faith too.

And so here, at least tolerated-indiferent-no cohercion, sincere and permanent from Islam.

Have you some scenariois ideas, a possible ATL?
 
There are cases IOTL, although relatively limited. I can definetely see such things happen in peripheries of Islam, like Caucasus or Sahel, in larger scale than IOTL.
 
If there's still a strong enough Byzantine Empire post 1204 to defend its lands against Turkish incursions and even recapture some territory, maybe you'll have cases of Turkish emirs converting themselves and their people to Orthodox Christianity in exchange for Constantinople's patronage and protection against their rivals?
 
Didn't this happen OTL in the Philippines?

Nope - well,a s far I know, the muslims where in the south and perhaps center parts, not much conversions back... and the rest non-muslims went catholics.


Falecius, I vaguely remember something like that in the south of India from that famous Flocculencio - albeit top down, changing of rulers and an option to let conversions from Islam for the peoples (was refused by leaders). I could see it indeed in the 'limes'.

Cuāuhtemōc, nice idea, but Islam surely would have had to fare quite worse, so those states feel going the other way is a good idea.
 
Off the top of my head I can think of 3 scenarios.
1. Byzantines push the ottomans out of Anatolia sometime before the XX century. Enough Muslims you could say large scale conversion.
2. A new religion is formed that essentially does as islam does and takes over a large swath of land.
3. A surviving Crusader state of some sort kind of like the Plantagenet Jerusalem TL. It doesn't even need to last till modern day just long enough that the area is converted and then you now have a very large belligerent minority if they are reconquered. Though if there are other crusader esque states they would help each other survive and convert.
 
Off the top of my head I can think of 3 scenarios.
1. Byzantines push the ottomans out of Anatolia sometime before the XX century. Enough Muslims you could say large scale conversion.

By the time of the Ottomans, the Byzantines are not going to push the Muslims out of Anatolia.

3. A surviving Crusader state of some sort kind of like the Plantagenet Jerusalem TL. It doesn't even need to last till modern day just long enough that the area is converted and then you now have a very large belligerent minority if they are reconquered. Though if there are other crusader esque states they would help each other survive and convert.

How are you converting the area? That's going to stir up huge troubles - both with Muslim powers on the border (including the Ilkhanate, in that timeline) and the Muslims vastly outnumbering the Franks.
 
Could Bosnia be an option? I know that there was a sizable about of Muslims in that country and considering its close border with Hungary and later Austria, could it convert?
 
Could Bosnia be an option? I know that there was a sizable about of Muslims in that country and considering its close border with Hungary and later Austria, could it convert?

That might be difficult depending on your point of departure. If I'm not mistaken, a major part of what sets a Bosniak apart from a Croat or a Serb is his faith tradition.
 
Like you mentioned in the OP, a number of Albanian intellectuals toyed with the idea of a mass conversion in order to solicit further western support. Catholicism is not a viable option due to previous tensions and antagonism between Muslim and Catholic tribes in the North. Historically, Protestantism attracted the most attention and I think with an early enough POD you might be able to get something going...here's one idea.

POD: Perceiving that the use of the Greek alphabet might be problematic to Albanian readers, members of the British Foreign Bible Society ask Vangjel Meksi to translate the New Testament into Albanian, but using the Latin Alphabet. Meksi reluctantly agrees and comes up with an alphabet of 36 letters all of which are common in Latin typography. Beginning in 1819 (as per OTL) he takes 2 years to finish the work, in addition to a new grammar book using his new Alphabet.

Without the issue of Hellenization posed by the Meksi translation it is much more popular than OTL, particularly among the Albanian elite. Meksi's Alphabet inadvertently jumpstarts an Albanian cultural birth and spawns not only a subsequent translation of the Old Testament, but poetry and prose. The Ottomans try to crack down on the proliferation of Albanian language works, but consistent support from the British Foreign Bible Society in smuggling Bibles in, keeps the fires burning and paradoxically increases the popularity of the Bible and by extension Protestant Christianity.

Pressure continues to build for years as the Albanians universally adopt the Meksi Alphabet and begin to educate their children illicitly with aid from the BFBS. Rights for Albanian Christians are broached from time to time in negotiations surrounding the Tanzimat but are thrown out due to larger strategic considerations. The number of Albanian protestants steadily grows to about 5%-10% of the population by the time of the Treaty of San Stephano.

Now by 1878 in TTL the Albanian "Cultural Renaissance" has already been going for roughly 50 years despite the best efforts of the Turks. Furthermore it's clearly recognized that the Meksi translation of the Bible has been instrumental in initiating it and maintaining it. Protestant influence, present in OTL, is a dominating force in TTL and it has spread to the North in addition to the south of Albania.

Thus when the League of Prizren meets in 1878 there are dozens of delegates from the South, most of whom are Protestant or at least amicable to Protestantism (In OTL there were exactly 2 delegates from Southern Albania). 50 years of Ottoman suppression of Albanian culture in TTL have soured relations between the two people, and rather than call for a maintenance of the status quo within the Ottoman system, in TTL the Treaty of San Stephano is the last straw. The Albanians enumerate their demands which are more reminiscent of the demands of 1912 in OTL than 1878. In order to hammer home their demands for cultural autonomy, the Albanians toy with the idea of a mass conversion just as they did in OTL, only in TTL there's a lot more cultural weight behind it.

"Where the Sword is, there is faith" is an Albanian proverb, often used to characterize their conversion to Islam. I'd imagine that after 50 years of Ottoman oppression in TTL the Albanians would see that the Ottoman Empire is not the place for Albania. I think that a mass conversion would be more seriously considered in the hopes of gaining the UK as a backer. The Northern Tribes could pull this off, as for them cultural tradition matters far more than faith. Thus in TTL at the League of Prizren, the Northern Albanian tribes all convert to the Albanian Evangelical Church or something and they're joined by a number of liberal beys from the center of the country and the south. The population itself is ambivalent at best. The clerics try to lead a revolt but it doesn't get far as the entire country is swept up in nationalistic fervor. Mosques are torn down or converted into Protestant churches. Calls go out to the UK and America for missionaries and aid in order to cement this conversion.

The entire region hovers on a knife edge as the Ottoman Empire tries to figure out what to do. British support, though not a certainty, comes through and the Ottomans give in to almost all the Albanian demands. It doesn't take very long for Albanian demands to be copied in Macedonia and elsewhere in the Empire rapidly changing the very nature of the Ottoman Empire. Due to it's fundamental role in Albanian independence, Protestantism becomes synonymous with Albanian national identity.

Of course, there's a valid point that the success of the Meksi translation will have massive ripple effects on other missionary activity in the Balkans. That might take some more research.

A slightly more plausible option could be a mass conversion to Bektashism (also considered)...but I'm not sure if Bektashism satisfies the conditions of the OP.
 
If a population converts en masse and not at the end of a gun or sword, then how sincere were they about their religion to start with?
 
If a population converts en masse and not at the end of a gun or sword, then how sincere were they about their religion to start with?

THat's kinda the thing in some scenarios the later conversion being probably en masse due to what they wish really,. or end up so.

And then, peoples change. Maybe a new religion would seize hearts and souls as it fit as the old religion adopted by rother habitude, cultural heriloom, etc.
 
It really depends on what you define as Islam.

On the one hand it was'nt uncommon in the early days, right after a conquest for a population to nominally adopt the conquerers religion (in the case of Iberia, it was both Islam and Christianity at different times), while privately/secretly retaining their pre-invasion beliefs, which could/did result in them simply no longer needing to pretend when the region was reconquered by powers sharing their religion, which was incorrectly seen by some as conversion from one to the other.

Now, in the case of a population in which Islam is the long established religion I really don't see it happening en masse, I mean individual and even small scale mass conversions (as in a single village) are possible and have happened, but unless being forced for generations, I really don't see it ever happening; the Abrahamic religions are very good at retaining believers and Islam is even better at that than the others; the only real 'threat'/likely population shift is to simply no longer believe in religion at all and becoming Irreligious (Atheist or Agnostic), however by that point the population is'nt going to see any other religion as the true path since they'll view religion in general critically.
 
The Iranian Shah already in the 1930's goes totally wild about westernising and he legalises all other religions (except Sunni islam) and actually promotes them. Thus many people convert to Bahai (which becomes a major religion) and some peace loving sect of Christianity. He is almost couped by a bunch of radical Islamists but that fails and the people start to 'hate' Islam (because the Shah is also very generous to his people and Iran is developing because oil, think of roads, rails and luxury goods). Because of this secularisation also comes in and combined with other Western stuff Iran becomes a western, modern nation with, over time, a majority of unreligious people (atheist or agnostics) and large Bahai and Christian minorities (with a original Shia islam also being a minority).

This?
 
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