Earliest possible gunpowder?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 67076
  • Start date

Deleted member 67076

What is the earliest possible discovery of gunpowder that could happen? Also, when could said gunpowder be put into service, whether cannons, grenades, explosives, rockets or firearms?

It would be preferable if this could be discovered in the Hellenic World or Middle East.

Bonus points if you can do this in Late Antiquity or Earlier.
 
The constituents of gunpowder are charcoal (known since paleolithic times); sulphur, also known since pre-history, for those around active volcanoes; and saltpetre, originally extracted from stable urine. So the time limiter would be animal husbandry to provide the saltpetre.

The luck/genius/message from the gods required to put them together - who knows. The actual process is not hard however,as any schoolboy can attest.

Certainly, the ancient Greeks could have made gunpowder if someone had told them how. Perhaps not in large quantities, initially at any rate.

Putting it into service probably requires a well organised state, to allow production in quantity, and some fairly competent bronze working capability.
 
The constituents of gunpowder are charcoal (known since paleolithic times); sulphur, also known since pre-history, for those around active volcanoes; and saltpetre, originally extracted from stable urine. So the time limiter would be animal husbandry to provide the saltpetre.

The luck/genius/message from the gods required to put them together - who knows. The actual process is not hard however,as any schoolboy can attest.

Certainly, the ancient Greeks could have made gunpowder if someone had told them how. Perhaps not in large quantities, initially at any rate.

Putting it into service probably requires a well organised state, to allow production in quantity, and some fairly competent bronze working capability.
From what I understand for gunpowder to be of more use that some sort of greek fire its the metalworking that it the problem. (then again I'm rather uneducated on this topic) When did they have sufficent metalworking to produce guns?
 
First, you'll need a proto-chemical feature, technical knowledge and some experience with.

Hellenistic scientific context could have made it, with much more time. The main issue (besides technical one I would talk about below) is their lack of experimentation, many machines never being really constructed.
Still, Alexandrian context is maybe the earlier possible situation of european discovery of gunpowder.

Ancient alchemy was considered as occult science as magic by Roman law (Diocletian didn't hesitate to destroy several books about it) and I doubt it would be a good context for your query.

If not, medieval alchemy could have made it if gunpowder wasn't imported from East. Whatever Islamic world at first or Christian after the XII, alchemy was quite the thing. But, it suffers from different issues.
First, as the Ancient Greeks, Arabo-Muslims scholars were much about theorisation and didn't build everything they described.
For Europeans, it's quite the reverse : alchemists were pragmatists, outside University, not really seen as scholars and a bit despised.

You have also the question of byzantine alchemy. It was inheriting Hellenistic school features, and served as a source for Arabs. Tough, it didn't seem that despite the knowledge of Greek alchemists, it was as widespread that it was in Arabo-Islamic or Latin worlds and seems as well to have an hard time to avoid being considered as occult as the Romans did.

Thanks to continual manipulation and experimentation, Alchemy is maybe the better chance of medieval gunpowder without Chinese/Mongol intervention.

Then, you need to refinate a the product of the first discoveries to have it usable for warfare. OTL, it took some centuries.
That's not all : without proper metallurgical knowledge, gunpowder would be seen no better than an amusing curiosity. Notably forged, then melted iron works to have weapon able to withstand explosions.

Finally, you'll have a period where gunpowder artillery would be in concurrence with mechanical sort, and as adaptation is expansive, as gunpowder artillery would need to be perfected, as mechanical artillery could (as OTL) obtain more efficient results than gunpowder...

So, you need not one but two or three discoveries :
- Gunpowder itself
- Metallurgical progress, and its corollary mechanization
- eventually, Relative "normalization" of alchemy as at least an acknowledged technical activity.
 
From what I understand for gunpowder to be of more use that some sort of greek fire its the metalworking that it the problem. (then again I'm rather uneducated on this topic) When did they have sufficent metalworking to produce guns?

Greek fire is most probably a naphta or oil-based product : liquid form, used with siphons...Not pre-gunpowder at all, that's certain.

OTL, in Europe, not before the begging XIII for the Arabo-Islamic world, and the end of same century for Europeans. And we're talking about sufficient, no more; the kind that allow building gunpowder weapons that works (and kind of exploding regularly) but no match compared to mechanical artillery possibilities.

Before the middle of XV, gunpowder weapons were almost exclusively psychological weapons as they are quite inefficient. That's a good feature, and it famously impressed and frightened Castillan cavalrymen when they were confronted to Islamic cannons but for material efficiency...
 
I've heard a theory that the original inpiration of the arc of the covenant may have actually been a primitive gunpowder device that basically just made a loud noise when it blew up to scare people. Not sure how solid the reasoning is though.:eek:
 

Deleted member 67076

What about the government employing alchemists in warfare? Would that speed up development?

Say, for example, in addition to Iconoclasm, the Byzantine Government hires alchemists in an attempt to concoct a magic elixir/potion?
 

katchen

Banned
Mithradites VI, King of Pontus had the kind of experimental, empirical mind that would have noticed gunpowder if he accidentally lit some on fire with a vessel on top of it. The man was constantly experimenting with chemical combinations and new chemical compounds. and mixtures. Mithradites's was more interested in poisons. But if he saw a concotion that could propel a missile at projectile speed, he would immediately recognize it's possibilities as a weapon of war where few of his contemporaries would. Even and especially projectiles carrying greek fire.
 
From what I understand for gunpowder to be of more use that some sort of greek fire its the metalworking that it the problem. (then again I'm rather uneducated on this topic) When did they have sufficent metalworking to produce guns?

Yes, to propel a projectile with useful force (as opposed to making a lot of noise and smoke), a gunbarrel capable of withstanding the force is required.

Bronze is better for that than early iron, but it needs to be GOOD bronze. And a cannon is a BIG lump of bronze. So, maybe very late bronze age. Perhaps some time in the last century BC ?

The problem of course is having it all come together at the same time. For all we know, a crude gunpowder might have been invented millennia ago, and forgotten because no-one had any practical sue for it.

You need simultaneously, bronze (lead, tin, copper mining); advanced casting techniques; charcoal (implying a forested area in proximity); sulphur (implying nearby volcanic activity ) ; and saltpeter (implying sizable stabled or barn housed animal herds (steppe type animal husbandry won't work, you need to channel the urine into collectors and drains).

Possibly sometime around the Cretan or Minoan era all that MIGHT come together.
 
What about the government employing alchemists in warfare? Would that speed up development?
Governmental funding? In Ancient or Medieval times?
For a discipline considered at best as speculative, more usually as occult or crookery? For warfare, a situation were alchemy was not able to help at all?
I'm sorry, but this is a bit too big to be used :eek:

Without considering that such thing as a government don't exist then (at least not like a body able to hire, fund, and make a public service working) and we would have to deal with individuals funding from their own pocket...

You had nobles or bourgeois hiring alchemists for particular services : it didn't usually end well, alchemist proving unable to fulfill their promises (that were unrealistic anyway).

Really, what you need is the recognition of Alchemy as a valid scholarly discipline. Then you can have high nobles (even kings) helping without too much issue one or two scholars (nothing close as a Alchemical Manhattan Project, of course), but gunpowder discovery is going to be serendipity and not a Civilization-like progress you can select before it's actually discovered ;)

Say, for example, in addition to Iconoclasm, the Byzantine Government hires alchemists in an attempt to concoct a magic elixir/potion?
Alchemy for concoct a magic elixir being while being considered already as occultism, as said above, isn't going to mix well with Iconoclasm and a religious civil war (that, as all the religious conflicts can be summarized as "I'm holier than thou")
 
From what I understand for gunpowder to be of more use that some sort of greek fire its the metalworking that it the problem. (then again I'm rather uneducated on this topic) When did they have sufficent metalworking to produce guns?

Even if guns are impossible grenades and cannons are an option well before handheld guns.
 
Even if guns are impossible grenades and cannons are an option well before handheld guns.

Err...No?

Without being able to make cannon able to withstand explosion, you can't use it. OTL, handled guns appeared relatively quickly after they managed to make cannons that make more damage to enemies than to the gunners.
The principle is basically the same.
 
Though having cannons may be easier since being having construction light enough to be practical as handheld takes some further development past the minimum for cannon - which can get away with being heavy (to a point) as they weigh in tons anyway.
 

Deleted member 67076

Err...No?

Without being able to make cannon able to withstand explosion, you can't use it. OTL, handled guns appeared relatively quickly after they managed to make cannons that make more damage to enemies than to the gunners.
The principle is basically the same.
Are grenades still an option? If not what is necessary to create grenades?

Governmental funding? In Ancient or Medieval times?
For a discipline considered at best as speculative, more usually as occult or crookery? For warfare, a situation were alchemy was not able to help at all?
I'm sorry, but this is a bit too big to be used :eek:

Without considering that such thing as a government don't exist then (at least not like a body able to hire, fund, and make a public service working) and we would have to deal with individuals funding from their own pocket...

You had nobles or bourgeois hiring alchemists for particular services : it didn't usually end well, alchemist proving unable to fulfill their promises (that were unrealistic anyway).
Dammit.

Really, what you need is the recognition of Alchemy as a valid scholarly discipline. Then you can have high nobles (even kings) helping without too much issue one or two scholars (nothing close as a Alchemical Manhattan Project, of course), but gunpowder discovery is going to be serendipity and not a Civilization-like progress you can select before it's actually discovered ;)
How could that occur? Would you need more theoretical aspects introduced and more chemistry elements added in?

Alchemy for concoct a magic elixir being while being considered already as occultism, as said above, isn't going to mix well with Iconoclasm and a religious civil war (that, as all the religious conflicts can be summarized as "I'm holier than thou")
What if instead of Iconoclasm, there is a return to Alchemy?
 
Are grenades still an option? If not what is necessary to create grenades?
What's necessary is cast iron, or ceramica but we need enough things already let's not add this, if you want actually efficient grenades. In Europe, before the XVIII, they weren't that useful.

A really early alternative would be the "pot de fer"
Basically a big caldron where you put powder and virtually anything you could get your hand on : arrows, bolts, very small rocks...

Bombards as well can be done with basic metallurgical features (still appearing in Middle-East Europe around the XIII/XIV when it was far more common in China) and were more or less similar to first Chinese cannons of the XI century.

In order to have that, you need enough metallurgical knowledge being associated with chemical one. And experience.
Seeing how Europe owes its metallurgical advances to Arabo-Muslim advances you'll need a PoD to make them even more advanced and quicker than OTL (It's going to be hard) if you want to catch a bit the enormous lateness that Europe and western World had compared to China on this regard.


How could that occur? Would you need more theoretical aspects introduced and more chemistry elements added in?
Not really. Algebra itself wasn't really seen as an academic field science, as it was more a pragmatical knowledge, associated to geometry or economy.
Alchemist really tried to make their art acknowledged as scientific.

Admittedly, for Barbara Obrist, they were close to reach it in the beginning of the XIII, as it was associated with medicine that was an academic field.
But the cookeries on alchemy quite ruined it and the previous caution about its occult origin didn't helped.

You will need Univeristy to acknowledge more pragmatical features : it would be hard, as going against the conception of scientific arts as made in the beggining of Middle Ages. Having more favored urban elites and having them having a more important political and cultural role sooner may allow the teachings that were made marginally to University being more accepted socially.

What if instead of Iconoclasm, there is a return to Alchemy?
There was a Byzantine Alchemy, quite dynamic (and influential if we take the word of western late medieval alchemists). The issue here, is its recognition at least socially, better if formally.
I don't know about Byzantine scientific teaching and situation to say how to do so, tough.
 
You can have grenades as soon as you have workable gunpowder. At its simplest a grenade is just a clay pot filled with gunpowder with a fuse of some sort stuck in. It will work but the casualties from the shrapnel will be outweighed by the psychological value. I would say the best way to get gunpowder is from naval warfare as a way to clear the enemy's decks or set their ships on fire.
 
Couldn't Chinese alchemists just have discovered gunpowder earlier? Presumably its original discovery was accidental so let's push it back a few centuries to the middle part of the first millennium, like around AD 600 or so. Plausible, yes or no?
 
Couldn't Chinese alchemists just have discovered gunpowder earlier? Presumably its original discovery was accidental so let's push it back a few centuries to the middle part of the first millennium, like around AD 600 or so. Plausible, yes or no?

You need people mixing those ingredients in the first place. That's the problem with pushing it back earlier - were people doing that? Its not a mixture you'd do without the sort of activity that would see alchemy and such practices.

More problematically, to get useful gunpowder, you need a pretty fine ratio of the ingredients and other steps that were only learned about the hard way after it came about.

Otherwise, you get something that produces flame but doesn't really explode properly - and thus has little useful force as a propellent.
 
Last edited:
Top