Napoleon eradicates Prussia

Max Sinister

Banned
After beating them in 1806/07, Napoleon wants to put sure that Prussia can never rise again, so he dismembers it completely into the states of Brandenburg, Silesia, Pomerania and Prussia and gives each of them to a relative (like Jerome in Westphalia) or a good general (like Bernadotte in Sweden). The Hohenzollern are sent into exile (Russia, I'd guess) or killed.

With Prussia eradicated, would Austria dare to oppose Napoleon in 1809? Would he try to invade Russia earlier? And if he does and loses again, who will dare to deliver the first strike against him, if Prussia's not around?
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Max Sinister said:
After beating them in 1806/07, Napoleon wants to put sure that Prussia can never rise again, so he dismembers it completely into the states of Brandenburg, Silesia, Pomerania and Prussia and gives each of them to a relative (like Jerome in Westphalia) or a good general (like Bernadotte in Sweden). The Hohenzollern are sent into exile (Russia, I'd guess) or killed.

With Prussia eradicated, would Austria dare to oppose Napoleon in 1809? Would he try to invade Russia earlier? And if he does and loses again, who will dare to deliver the first strike against him, if Prussia's not around?
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Bernadotte a "good general"? I believe this belong in the ASB category!

Seriously, though, this could either work in Bonaparte's favor or make the German nationalism which rose in 1813 all the fiercer. I've always thought that he should have been either tougher on Prussia or more lenient. As it was, he was tough enough to make the yearn for revegence, but lenient enough to allow them the power to strike back when they got the chance.
 

Susano

Banned
What I read was that he planned to make Brandenburg an own entity, give Silesia to Austria, Pommerania to Sweden and the Prussias to the Duchy of Warscaw.

Of course, with Napoleon being himself, hell eventually still storm off into Russia, and thats doomed to fail either way. While the Prussians then were the first to jump ship, the russian failure was the fanal that signaled Europe that its now time to beat down the upstart Corsican. Might have taken a bit longer, but Even a partitioned Prussia doesnt prevent Nappys fall.

And on the Congress of Vienna (or whatevr the equivalent would be), Austria might TRY to not let Prussia be restored, but Im sure the others would want a counter-balance to Austria. That, and the general restaurationist agenda of the victors would mean that Prussia would be restored. So, in the end, no harm done.

/Edit: I know that might be odd coming from me, but - German nationalism? Beliving that German nationalism really contributed to Nappys downfall belongs into the ASB section! The Napoleonic Wars were still fought like the typical cabinett wars of the 18thc entury, and were solely dependant on the decisions and alliances of the absolutist rulers, and not any national sentiments of their populations.
 

Max Sinister

Banned
@Anaxagoras: Why do you think he's a bad general? Maybe there were better ones (Davout frex), but I don't know that he ever royally screwed up.

@Susano: Many artists and intellectuals believed in a united Germany, and many Germans were willing to fight for a free, stronger, more united Germany. I think they were more or less betrayed by the kings, esp. Austria, who didn't hold what they promised when they were in trouble.
 

George Carty

Banned
What if Napoleon eradicated both Prussia AND Austria? Poland is reformed with its 1772 western border. East Prussia is given to Russia, and Pomerania to Sweden. German Austria is added to the Confederation of the Rhine. Hungary becomes the "Kingdom of Hungary", and Bohemia-Silesia becomes the "Kingdom of Bohemia", both under relatives of Napoleon. The Habsburg and Hohenzollern dynasties are exterminated, to ensure that Prussia and Austria can never be restored.
 

Susano

Banned
Nappy couldnt do that. Austria was never defeated the way Prussia was, and Nappy even tried to court them as allies, simply because he NEEDED a strong ally (even if, of course, it was also clear to him that they were allies by being threatened, but, eh...).

However, for Prussia, Nappy DID have those division plans.

@Max: I didnt say there wasnt German nationalism. There was. It just didnt, contrrary to popular myth, in any form contibute to the war, so wether the nationalism would be fiercer or not simply doesnt matter.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Max Sinister said:
@Anaxagoras: Why do you think he's a bad general? Maybe there were better ones (Davout frex), but I don't know that he ever royally screwed up.
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Jena-Auerstedt.
 

larpsidekick

Max - he managed to miss both Jena and Auerstadt (in the same way D'Eleron was to miss both Quatre Bras and Ligny), and while not defeated by his brother marshals in 1814 this was more due to his desire not to be defeated and so spoil his reputation. He was an excellent administrator though - which got him his crown. Not necessarily a 'bad general' - but not one of the good ones - certainly one of the weakest of the marshalate.

As to nationalism playing no part in the Napoleonic wars, it was these wars (and the revolution beforehand) that really created national feeling - both of Napoleons failures in campaign terms (Spain and Russia) were defeated because of the rise of nationalist feeling in those countries, and it was certainly one of the reasons for the Prussian Army deserting the Eagles in 1812 - the feeling of the officer corps was certainly one of national feeling. In the German lands it was the middle classes (artist/intellectuals, officers, etc) that felt this at first, it percolating to the peasantry over the next years - leading to the revolutions of 1848 throughout Europe.

On topic... (sorry) Napoleon would eventually attack Russia, and would take the armies of the individual states with him. I would think that they would be brigaded togethor in one corps (as with all other national groups - Saxon, Pole, Italian etc), which may mean that (as in OTL) this corps deserts to the Russians en masse, leading the first strike in 1813. If he seperated the individual units out, then I can see Russia taking the lead, influenced by the cavalry of St George.
 

Redbeard

Banned
Susano said:
Nappy couldnt do that. Austria was never defeated the way Prussia was, and Nappy even tried to court them as allies, simply because he NEEDED a strong ally (even if, of course, it was also clear to him that they were allies by being threatened, but, eh...).

However, for Prussia, Nappy DID have those division plans.

@Max: I didnt say there wasnt German nationalism. There was. It just didnt, contrrary to popular myth, in any form contibute to the war, so wether the nationalism would be fiercer or not simply doesnt matter.
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I'm with Susano here.

Although you can say German nationalism was born and grew during the Nap. wars it was the final alliance between all the other pre-nationalism powers that brought Napoleon to his fall in 1813-14. The few romatic Freikorps of elevated fame were militarily insignificant, but handy for creating the later myth.

BTW it is interesting to see how different the Nap. wars is described by German historians from first and second half of 19th century respectively. In first half the main attention is given to meticulously describing the Austrian and Russian efforts but in second half we begin to see the present popular image of heroic Prussians saving the day for Germany although handicapped by lacklustre Austrians and moron Russians. It also appears like many later British historains have based their image on the central European events mainly on the Prussian version.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 

Susano

Banned
Hermanubis said:
No. Just no. The very idea is an abomination~!!
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Actually, yes. My forme rstatement was even wrong. WEST Prussia only was to be given to Warscaw, and East Prussia to Russia.

larp: Yes, those wars re-established nationalism. True. The wars did effect nationalism. But not the other way round. Who cares what the officer corps thought - after all, military is always, and esepcially back then was only a tool of politics, and the politcis surely were not in any way motivatd by any nationalism.
 

Wendell

What might the borsers of the restored Prussia look like? Certainly, they would differ from our timeline.
 

Nicole

Wendell said:
What might the borsers of the restored Prussia look like? Certainly, they would differ from our timeline.
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It depends on how the war ends- for example, if Austria is on the winning side, it may (in fact, likely will) say that it will keep Silesia at the Congress of Vienna. Russia, which did grab Finland while a Napoleonic ally but kept it OTL, may decide it wants to keep East Prussia- likely meaning that any "Prussia" recreated would be more west, perhaps taking all of Saxony at least.
 

Wendell

Imajin said:
It depends on how the war ends- for example, if Austria is on the winning side, it may (in fact, likely will) say that it will keep Silesia at the Congress of Vienna. Russia, which did grab Finland while a Napoleonic ally but kept it OTL, may decide it wants to keep East Prussia- likely meaning that any "Prussia" recreated would be more west, perhaps taking all of Saxony at least.
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So, it would not be Prussia.
 

Othniel

Wendell said:
So, it would not be Prussia.
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Royal Prussia...
Rzeczpospolita_Royal_Ducal.png
 
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