Nazi reform

[Fenwick]

Let us say Nazi Germany wins the war. Panzers rolled across Red Sqaure as England accepted a peace with favorable terms (keep the Empire, lose it's say in Europe) in 1941.

Assuming Hitler dies around 1955 or sooner, what would Nazi Germany be like?

I do not really believe the extremist views would stay a core value for very long in Germany. Much like DeStalinization, could Germans denouce former Hitler policies?

Would Hitler remain the icon of the German people? Or would he be seen as a monster?

Would his actions be seen as reckless? Or would he still be the greastest Military thinker of hsi day?

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by Fenwick

Let us say Nazi Germany wins the war. Panzers rolled across Red Sqaure as England accepted a peace with favorable terms (keep the Empire, lose it's say in Europe) in 1941.

Assuming Hitler dies around 1955 or sooner, what would Nazi Germany be like?

I do not really believe the extremist views would stay a core value for very long in Germany. Much like DeStalinization, could Germans denouce former Hitler policies?

Would Hitler remain the icon of the German people? Or would he be seen as a monster?

Would his actions be seen as reckless? Or would he still be the greastest Military thinker of hsi day?

How much would the outside world come to learn about his crimes?

[Fenwick]

Some Nazi offical could pull a "secret speech" move. The general world , or public doesn't know but the Nazi party elite do.

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by Fenwick

Some Nazi offical could pull a "secret speech" move. The general world , or public doesn't know but the Nazi party elite do.

But how long could that be kept secret?

[LordKalvan]

A lot depends on who wins the succession. If it goes to the SS, the Reich will be much harder to change; or you might find a Nazi Krutschev, slowly de-Hitlerising the regime.

Both the Russian and the Chinese history have shown that neither Stalin nor Mao survived for long after their death (horrible and tasteless pun, I know )

[luakel]

Perhaps Speer would take over, and start moderate Kruschev-esque reforms?

[panzerjay]

hitler would be elevated to a god. but what ultimatly brings down the nazi bastards would be constant infighting between the army and SS. sooner or later documents and pictures of nazi crimes would get out but nazis never let bad PR get them down did they?

[LordKalvan]

Originally Posted by luakel

Perhaps Speer would take over, and start moderate Kruschev-esque reforms?

Speer should not be a spring chicken either. I was thinking of Baldur von Schirach, if you stay with the party. Otherwise some youngish war hero in the Wehrmacht.

[Bismarck]

A victorious Nazi-Germany would probably ended up more or less like the Soviet Union did following WW2 in OTL.

As for the conflict between the army and the SS, this would be greater if the POD for the Nazi victory was later in the war (Hitler was gradually losing trust in the army and gaining faith in the SS), but if Hitler wins against Britain in cerca late 1940, and the nazies do very well in the war in the east, the SS won't have the chance the chance to provide serious competition for the army, and will probably end up as a police force keeping order through force in the occupied terriorties.

[Max Sinister]

I expect some power struggle if Hitler hasn't a designated successor, or if said successor isn't powerful enough. Speer might be competent, but that doesn't mean that all the other big nazis will say "he'll be a good Führer, I'll forfeit". Göring was for a long time designated successor, but he could die before Hitler with the drugs he was taking. After him, Hitler wanted Goebbels.

The other candidates: Himmler, Bormann, Heydrich (if he survives). Maybe the Wehrmacht would strike against the party and the SS, making von Brauchitsch or Halder or so new leader? From National Socialism to a standard right-wing military dictatorship...

[LacheyS]

The regime would, in 1955, still be involved in guerrilla wars on the eastern front, I would suspect. No matter how complete its victory over the Soviet Union, I can't imagine the Russian people would live content under foreign occupation.

I think that, re information about Hitler's crimes, that most Germans would be unaware of their extent and those who did know certainly wouldn't dare to talk. However, I think the world at large would be generally aware. Just like in the Cold War, we wouldn't necessarily like it, but we would deal with Hitler because we had no choice.

After he was gone, I can see whoever his successor is attempting some kind of facelift for the Reich. But real reform would be minimal and superficial, as real reform would destroy the Reich itself.

[WFHermans]

A while ago I saw a fakumentary about just that subject.
As I recall, Göring took over after Hitler's death and ruled Breshnev-like until the 80s I think. Then some Gorbatshov-likes took over and slowly the national-socialist puppets regained their freedom.

The book Fatherland has a similar theme, with an even more politically correct Hollywoodmovie made about it. There someone hands president Kennedy who is visiting Germany a list with nazi crimes, and immediately Kennedy decides that Germany is the evil empire, end his visit and Germany crumbles down, The End.

[The Vet]

[quote=Fenwick]Let us say Nazi Germany wins the war. Panzers rolled across Red Sqaure as England accepted a peace with favorable terms (keep the Empire, lose it's say in Europe) in 1941.

Assuming Hitler dies around 1955 or sooner, what would Nazi Germany be like?

I'd also be interested to know what a victorious Japanese Empire/Asia co posperity sphere would be like.

[Aldroud]

I recall reading an amazing book titled 'The Children's War' set in early 21st Century Europe. Everything from the west coast of Britain to the Ural mountains belongs to the Reicht. The Polish underground has gone REALLY underground and is manuevering politics and events to place one of their sleeper agents into the Fuhrer seat with the goal of replacing the Reich with a more Federal system, granting autonomy to different regions.

[Tom_B]

Assuming by some elaborate miracle of handwaving a victorious Nazi Germany (and I am a big disbeliever in Axis Win TL's)..

The Nazi ideology was obsessed with health. I could see it becoming a leader in the environmental movement. The Folk need clean air and clean water, an environment free from toxins like mercury, SO2, lead, Gypsies and Jews.

[Neroon]

Originally Posted by Aldroud

I recall reading an amazing book titled 'The Children's War' set in early 21st Century Europe. Everything from the west coast of Britain to the Ural mountains belongs to the Reicht.

You might want to re-read it!
The big POD (apart from an appaerently more successful nuclear weapons program for the Nazi's) was that Nazi Germany never went to war against the Soviets.
Really liked that book - even though its even more depressiong than the Domination at times. I'll never forget the part where the AK is instructing the main character about how he should talk to the U.S. media about what he went through. It's something like "Don't mention that you were sexually abused by the commander of your labour camp. If you tell about that, the right will label you as gay and the left will label you as homophobic"
&
An AK infiltrator becoming Fuhrer and saving the Nazi Reich from itself might ironically ensure continued German domination of the Continent instead of it eventually collapsing under it's own weight USSR style.

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by Tom_B

Assuming by some elaborate miracle of handwaving a victorious Nazi Germany (and I am a big disbeliever in Axis Win TL's)..

The Nazi ideology was obsessed with health. I could see it becoming a leader in the environmental movement. The Folk need clean air and clean water, an environment free from toxins like mercury, SO2, lead, Gypsies and Jews.

And Hitler was adamantly against smoking tobacco, was he not?

[sunsurf]

I read he was a vegetarian.

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by sunsurf

I read he was a vegetarian.

A vegetarian, but not a vegan. I guess Hitler could be called an ovalactovegetarian.

[dmz23]

Most people seem to forget that the nazi state was totally devoted to its own destruction,if ww2 was won by the germans,Hitler would continue expansion until germany is defeated or achieves global domination.The holocaust would be expanded after the war to include nationalities[starting in the east,czechs,russian etc].Hitlers philosophy seems to have been assimilate or exterminate[he wanted all his subjects to be of aryan/germanic decent or at least to accept german cultural traditions]and its likely hitlers successor would simply carry on these policies.Any successor to Hitler would be extremist and its naieve to think otherwise,the successor would probably be a more brutal dictator,indoctrinated with years of racist/militant nazi propaganda