In 1885 king Milan of Serbia proposed to the the Austrians that they absorb his Kingdom, the Austrians turned down the proposal concerned at the potential unruliness of the Serbs, however in hind site might this have been a better option.
AH absorbs Serbia in 1885
- Thread starter victoria944
- Start date
Honestly, the last thing that A-H need is another minorities, if things between Hungary, Croatians and Austrian (and not talking about the other ethnicity) were complicated, adding the Serb is on the long term create only more problem
As it was, "on the long term" the Empire collapsed anyway as a consequence of having plunged itself into a long, bloody, destructive and pointless war with Serbia. So, at worst, it could make things as bad as IOTL (from the perspective of a Austrian ruler with hindsight).
Of course, the possibility of Serbians causing trouble within the Empire was apparent at the time too, since the offer was turned down. Arguably, Austria had not much in the way of options left by that point.
Of course, the possibility of Serbians causing trouble within the Empire was apparent at the time too, since the offer was turned down. Arguably, Austria had not much in the way of options left by that point.
I'm pretty sure Austria would never have done so, but suppose at some point Austria would give the parts of its empire significant autonomy. In that case, I think, those ethnical differences and 'problems' could be postponed for a bit, no?
Lumsden
Banned
A possible alteration is that all of these Slavs would give real weight to the idea of a Third Crown - call it Austria-Hungary-Slavonia, with the 'Third Crown' consisting of Serbia, Bosnia, poss. Vojvodina (I know the Croats are Catholic and the Serbs one of the Greek churches - I don't know if that would alter things). Also, you've just butterflied the cause of WW1.
Actually absorbing Serbia might have helped the Empire because it would have diminished the relative weight of the Magyar half of the Empire. In this period the Hungarian government was pursuing an aggressive Magyarisation policy in the areas of Croatia and Dalmatia it controlled, whereas Vienna was more liberal and multicultural. If Serbia were included, the Austrians could leverage South Slav national identity against the Hungarians. The problem wasn't that multi-nationalism was incompatible with the Empire's politics, it was that the Hungarians had won some measure of freedom and wanted to be the only nationality to keep it. If the Serbians were welded together into an administrative unit with Bosnia and Croatia then the Emperor could possible reform the Empire into a federal monarchy with proper self-government for the Czechs, Poles, etc. who were generally fine with remaining within the Empire but who just wanted legal rights and recognition blocked by the Hungarians.
The idea of creating a Yugoslav state within the Empire to offset Magyar power
was an idea that was seriously considered amongst the Austrian ruling authorities, if they do absorb Serbia the issue of absorbing Bosnia Herzegovina
may be made less controversial, uniting both with Croatia at some point.
Ive changed my views on the AH empire after reading The Sleepwalkers by Christopher Clark.
Whats interesting is if Serbia is absorbed Russia will have no option but to make Bulgaria favoured nation, it may be possible for AH and Russia to reach agreement on dividing the Balkans, many on the Russian side were unhappy with giving favoured nation status to Serbia as it was bound to clash with AH interests.
If Russia has to accept Bulgaria as its only potential slav ally in the Balkans then the issue of a Russian threat to the Bosphorus is kept alive so having some influence on the possibility of a British Russian rapprochement.
Other possibilities, an Austro Russian clash in the Balkans much earlier than 1914 that doesn't drag all of Europe in whilst going some way to iron out rivalries in the region. WW1 may be delayed or not occur at all, Germany and Russia may be more able to accommodate each others interests.
was an idea that was seriously considered amongst the Austrian ruling authorities, if they do absorb Serbia the issue of absorbing Bosnia Herzegovina
may be made less controversial, uniting both with Croatia at some point.
Ive changed my views on the AH empire after reading The Sleepwalkers by Christopher Clark.
Whats interesting is if Serbia is absorbed Russia will have no option but to make Bulgaria favoured nation, it may be possible for AH and Russia to reach agreement on dividing the Balkans, many on the Russian side were unhappy with giving favoured nation status to Serbia as it was bound to clash with AH interests.
If Russia has to accept Bulgaria as its only potential slav ally in the Balkans then the issue of a Russian threat to the Bosphorus is kept alive so having some influence on the possibility of a British Russian rapprochement.
Other possibilities, an Austro Russian clash in the Balkans much earlier than 1914 that doesn't drag all of Europe in whilst going some way to iron out rivalries in the region. WW1 may be delayed or not occur at all, Germany and Russia may be more able to accommodate each others interests.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Would this also mean that Russia will invest more in a Greater Bulgaria that can become a headache to Austria-Hungary?
I'm pretty sure King Milan didn't ask the Austrians to absorb his kingdom, but that doesn't mean Serbia couldn't have been annexed through other means.
Seriously, I don't think it would help AH much. It would butterfly away WW1 as we know it, but there are a few massive problems with the idea of creating a South-Slavic crownland to offset Hungary - the South Slavs are not exactly a monolithic bunch.
As for wider ramifications, Russia would obviously be forced to rely on Bulgaria and Montenegro as its proxies in the Balkans, unless Montenegro is somehow gobbled up by Austria as well in some sort of a two-for-one deal.
Seriously, I don't think it would help AH much. It would butterfly away WW1 as we know it, but there are a few massive problems with the idea of creating a South-Slavic crownland to offset Hungary - the South Slavs are not exactly a monolithic bunch.
As for wider ramifications, Russia would obviously be forced to rely on Bulgaria and Montenegro as its proxies in the Balkans, unless Montenegro is somehow gobbled up by Austria as well in some sort of a two-for-one deal.
It was quite the opposite, Austria-Hungary's long term problems were the result of the Hungarian Crown having to much autonomy.
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Including general opposition to any inclusion of further Slavic people on equal footing.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Can we also see Serbia and Montenegro divided on the similar scenario to Bulgaria and Macedonia? As in, the Montenegrin language could be written with Russian or Bulgarian Cyrillic (also rejecting the linguistic reforms that Vuk Karadzic did) as to declare themselves as the better bunch? Could we even have Montenegro take over Kosovo as to make sure either Albania or Serbia doesn't have it?
Italy has designs on Albania and Montenegro or at least seeing them remaining independent.
Considering Montenegro at the time was tiny and only got territory from being on the winning side/alliance IOTL I really don't see it doing so.
Bulgaria is more interested in Constantinople and then parts of S Romania to the North, Serbia was the power - other than Italy - that had eyes on Albania.
Fair enough, I'll look it up if I can...wait, was this proposal made immediately after the Serbo-Bulgarian War of 1885 ? That would make sense actually.
And a pretext of "guaranteeing Serbia's eastern borders" might help Austria avoid outright hostility from the population of Serbia, at least for some time. Coupled with a sensible and carefully executed reorganization of the k.u.k. system into a compromise between Austrian-Germans, Hungarians, South Slavs and other assorted minorities (kind of an ASB assumption with Austria but not outright impossible), we might actually be seeing a slight stabilization of Austria compared to OTL.
I think it would still be a giant on glass legs, though, just in a little less danger.