AHC: a foreign "Gibraltar" on English soil

Here's a challenge: with a POD after 1500, have a foreign power capture and hang on to its own little Gibraltar-equivalent on the island of Great Britain, maybe in Cornwall, or perhaps Kent? It could be a historic rival like France, Spain or the Netherlands, or maybe something more outside the box, like Russia or Sweden. How can it happen?

The Spanish Armada wins at Gravelines, and Queen Elizabeth is subsequently captured in the Battle of Tilbury. One of the terms of the peace settlement is that England cedes Dover as an enclave of the Spanish Netherlands. Not sure how to make it stick more than a generation or two, though, even if this also leads to a full Spanish victory against the Dutch Revolt.

I believe ages ago someone made a TL on here where the Isle of Wight is captured by the Spanish. It wouldn't be on the island of great Britain itself, but it'd be a useful , strategic piece of land to hold and would really screw with Southern England's trading economy.

Would Denmark keeping the Orkney count?
Otherwise, I can see something like Dover or its thereabouts being ceded after a particularly nasty British defeat, maybe in some Succession War or in the Nine Years wars. France, Germany, the Netherlands (in some form) and Spain are possible candidates. It would require a beg screw over British naval dominance to last however. Note that all the wars considered were British wins IOTL except the War of the austrian Succession, which was sort of a draw in British perspective.

In a "China industrializes" TL, the "Chinese Western Ocean Company" makes big business exporting Indian opium to Europe. The Pope and European kings attempt to end this trade, to no avail. Europeans in general, and Christians in particular, are looked down upon as barbarian god eaters by the Chinese.

Finally a young bureaucrat finds a legal reason to seize a Chinese ship's opium cargo and publicly burns it in Southampton.

The CWOC's owners include acquaintances of high-ranking eunuchs in the Imperial Court. The Emperor orders a punitive expedition where a Chinese task force lands at Southampton and marches to Windsor, leaving a trail for destruction in its wake. As part of peace negotiations, the Isle of Wright is leased to China for 99 years and opium is legalized.

Soon afterwards, similar treaties are signed with other European kings.

EternalCynic said:

In a "China industrializes" TL, the "Chinese Western Ocean Company" makes big business exporting Indian opium to Europe. The Pope and European kings attempt to end this trade, to no avail. Europeans in general, and Christians in particular, are looked down upon as barbarian god eaters by the Chinese.

Finally a young bureaucrat finds a legal reason to seize a Chinese ship's opium cargo and publicly burns it in Southampton.

The CWOC's owners include acquaintances of high-ranking eunuchs in the Imperial Court. The Emperor orders a punitive expedition where a Chinese task force lands at Southampton and marches to Windsor, leaving a trail for destruction in its wake. As part of peace negotiations, the Isle of Wright is leased to China for 99 years and opium is legalized.

Soon afterwards, similar treaties are signed with other European kings.

Click to expand...

Ah, good one!

A point to make here: Gibraltar has been so successful because it's just a massive lump of rock sticking out from the coastline. This makes it very hard to assault, especially when the fortifications have been carved inside the rock itself rather than placed on top of it. England, by contrast, has pretty much no location like this. Any "English Gibraltar" so to speak that was ceded to a foreign country could be relied upon to be attacked incessantly until it was conquered. I doubt it would last very long, even if the English remain fairly weak militarily in TTL, simply because it's so close to England's centre and so easy to attack. Only a vastly superior military could hope to keep it in the long-term, and if said military was vastly superior, you tend to ask why they settle for only holding one little point. Why not just conquer England entirely, or in some way dominate it in such a way that a Gibraltar is not necessary.

Otherwise, however, I guess there are a number of ways that an initial ceding of an exclave can be done, as above shows.

Perhaps some "Nazi victory" scenario where Germany keeps Channel Islands that were occupied in WW2?

Or how about the Republic of Ireland obtaining control of Northern Ireland in such a way that it's seen controversial within the United Knigdom? Would that count?

The Isle of Wight is probably the best option for a Gibraltar-like stronghold.

What about the Isles of Scilly though?

A.D. Godley, 1899 _


GRAECULUS ESURIENS

There came a Grecian Admiral to pale Britannia's shore--
In Eighteen Ninety-eight he came, and anchored off the Nore;
An ultimatum he despatched (I give the text complete),
Addressing it "_To Kurio_, the Premier, Downing-street." [1]

"Whereas the sons of Liberty with indignation view
The number of dependencies which governed are by you--
With Hellas (Freedom's chosen land) we purpose to unite
Some part of those dependencies--let's say the Isle of Wight."

"The Isle of Wight!" said Parliament, and shuddered at the word,
"Her Majesty's at Osborne, too--of course, the thing's absurd!"
And this response Lord Salisbury eventually gave:
"Such transfers must attended be by difficulties grave."

"My orders," said the Admiral, "are positive and flat:
I am not in the least deterred by obstacles like that:
We're really only acting in the interests of peace:
Expansion is a nation's law--we've aims sublime in Greece."

With that Britannia blazed amain with patriotic flames!
They built a hundred ironclads and launched them in the Thames:
They girded on their fathers' swords, both commoners and peers;
They mobilized an Army Corps, and drilled the Volunteers!

The Labour Party armed itself, invasion's path to bar,
"Truth" and the "Daily Chronicle" proclaimed a Righteous War;
Sir William Harcourt stumped the towns that sacred fire to fan,
And Mr Gladstone every day sent telegrams from Cannes.

But ere they marched to meet the foe and drench the land with gore,
Outspake that Grecian Admiral--from somewhere near the Nore--
And "Ere," he said, "hostilities are ordered to commence,
Just hear a last appeal unto your educated sense:--

"You can't intend," he said, said he, "to turn your Maxims on
The race that fought at Salamis, that bled at Marathon!
You can't propose with brutal force to drive from off your seas
The men of Homer's gifted line--the sons of Socrates!"

Britannia heard the patriot's plea, she checked her murderous plans:
Homer's a name to conjure with, 'mong British artisans:
Her Army too, profoundly moved by arguments like these,
Said 'e'd be blowed afore 'e'd fight the sons of Socrates.

They cast away their fathers' swords, those commoners and peers,--
Demobilized their Army Corps--dismissed their Volunteers:
Soft Sentiment o'erthrew the bars that nations disunite,
And Greece, in Freedom's sacred name, annexed the Isle of Wight.


[1. Transcriber's note: The phrase "To Kurio" was transliterated from
the Greek as follows: "To"--Tau, omega; "Kurio"--Kappa, upsilon, rho,
iota, omega.]

Falastur said:

A point to make here: Gibraltar has been so successful because it's just a massive lump of rock sticking out from the coastline. This makes it very hard to assault, especially when the fortifications have been carved inside the rock itself rather than placed on top of it. England, by contrast, has pretty much no location like this.

Click to expand...

St Michael's Mount.
Isle of Portland.

I don't think either would be takeable so long as the defender was able to deny the attacker control of the sea, and whereas the Mount is probably too small for anything more than a castle, Portland is larger than Gibraltar and only has land access via Chesil Beach. Portland is probably your best bet for a Gibraltar on the English mainland, so long as you can get a plausible POD for somebody to take it and want to keep it, anyway.

EternalCynic said:

In a "China industrializes" TL, the "Chinese Western Ocean Company" makes big business exporting Indian opium to Europe. The Pope and European kings attempt to end this trade, to no avail. Europeans in general, and Christians in particular, are looked down upon as barbarian god eaters by the Chinese.

Finally a young bureaucrat finds a legal reason to seize a Chinese ship's opium cargo and publicly burns it in Southampton.

The CWOC's owners include acquaintances of high-ranking eunuchs in the Imperial Court. The Emperor orders a punitive expedition where a Chinese task force lands at Southampton and marches to Windsor, leaving a trail for destruction in its wake. As part of peace negotiations, the Isle of Wright is leased to China for 99 years and opium is legalized.

Soon afterwards, similar treaties are signed with other European kings.

Click to expand...

Have you got a link to this TL by any chance? Seems quite interesting with the situations reversed. Search function failed me.

Falastur said:

A point to make here: Gibraltar has been so successful because it's just a massive lump of rock sticking out from the coastline. This makes it very hard to assault, especially when the fortifications have been carved inside the rock itself rather than placed on top of it. England, by contrast, has pretty much no location like this. Any "English Gibraltar" so to speak that was ceded to a foreign country could be relied upon to be attacked incessantly until it was conquered. I doubt it would last very long, even if the English remain fairly weak militarily in TTL, simply because it's so close to England's centre and so easy to attack. Only a vastly superior military could hope to keep it in the long-term, and if said military was vastly superior, you tend to ask why they settle for only holding one little point. Why not just conquer England entirely, or in some way dominate it in such a way that a Gibraltar is not necessary.

Otherwise, however, I guess there are a number of ways that an initial ceding of an exclave can be done, as above shows.

Click to expand...

Well, let's see places in Britain that were seized IOTL, post 1500:

- Cornwall (1595): Several villages raided, plus one fort seized and dismantled, by a Spanish squadron operating out of Brittany (a Catholic stronghold during the French wars of religion and home to the biggest colony of Spanish merchants in France at the time). Somewhere here is probably the best bet. Cornwall is the furthest and most isolated part of England, the coast is rugged, and Penzance in particular (IOTL severely damaged) would make a good strategic base to supply operations in Ireland some time down the line. Add to that that cryptic Catholicism was stronger in western England, and that the local population still did not speak English as their mother tongue at that time and could develop an anti-English ethnic identity if enough time passed under a foreign flag.

- Stornoway (1719): Occupied, but immediately left to support a Jacobite rising in Scotland that didn't work out. However, had they remained in fortified Lewis island and the British somehow unable to take them out (because the Scots rise in the numbers they were expected, or the plan to land a Spanish army in southwestern England is successful), it would make more sense to trade it back for Gibraltar in the peace table rather than keeping it.

RPW@Cy said:

St Michael's Mount.
Isle of Portland.

I don't think either would be takeable so long as the defender was able to deny the attacker control of the sea

Click to expand...

And there's the rub: Any foreign power managing to keep a 'Gibraltar' of its own in the British Isles for a significant amount of time can only do with a POD that prevents Britain becoming a superior naval power, which is going to have a lot more effects beyond just the existence of that stronghold...

RosoMC said:

Have you got a link to this TL by any chance? Seems quite interesting with the situations reversed. Search function failed me.

Click to expand...

I do believe he was responding with parody, IE no such TL exists.

Simreeve said:

And there's the rub: Any foreign power managing to keep a 'Gibraltar' of its own in the British Isles for a significant amount of time can only do with a POD that prevents Britain becoming a superior naval power, which is going to have a lot more effects beyond just the existence of that stronghold...

Click to expand...

Probably, but not necessarily. Britain could simply decide after awhile that recapturing the territory isn't essential. What if the country holding onto it goes on to become a British ally?

funnyhat said:

Probably, but not necessarily. Britain could simply decide after awhile that recapturing the territory isn't essential.

Click to expand...

Unlikely.

Anyway, what are they holding it for? Gibraltar gave us a fairly good naval base close to the [narrow] mouth of the Mediterranean, but unless the invaders have seized a large portion of Cornwall -- at least to a line east of Falmouth -- none of the areas that have been suggested so far would give them a useful harbour... and even Falmouth wouldn't be as useful at the [wider] mouth of the Channel as Gibraltar was at the mouth of the Med. They'd just have an isolated 'rock' or island that needed resupply by sea and whose possession by them irritated Britain.
Portland? Its sheltered harbour would be to the north, vulnerable to British batteries in mainland Dorset, rather than screened by the rock.
Scilly Isles: No safe anchorage in strong south-westerly weather, which is a common situation there.
Stornoway? I don't know about the harbour's quality, but it's too far from anywhere important to be worth using as a base (at least in pre-submarine/pre-aircraft days) anyway.

RPW@Cy said:

St Michael's Mount.
Isle of Portland.

I don't think either would be takeable so long as the defender was able to deny the attacker control of the sea, and whereas the Mount is probably too small for anything more than a castle, Portland is larger than Gibraltar and only has land access via Chesil Beach. Portland is probably your best bet for a Gibraltar on the English mainland, so long as you can get a plausible POD for somebody to take it and want to keep it, anyway.

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The Isle of Portland is completely flat, it would be very easy to storm it.

What about Lundy Island?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/gallery/2009/sep/28/lundy-island-40

Edit: Holy Island is another option:

http://jamiecarie.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Holy-Island.jpg

Though totally ASB on 100's of counts...but have the British Empire not only lose in the Crimean, but lose in such a humiliating manner, that she's forced to give up Cornwall to the Russian Empire, thereby granting them, that always elusive warm water port!

AHIMPERIALIST said:

Though totally ASB on 100's of counts...but have the British Empire not only lose in the Crimean, but lose in such a humiliating manner, that she's forced to give up Cornwall to the Russian Empire, thereby granting them, that always elusive warm water port!

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Ja, Britain was never gonna lose the Crimear; it was kinda like holding away an opponent at arms length. So, its beyong ASB.