"For Kaiser and Spices": Germans discover America

Faeelin

Banned
Okay, reading Wordly Goods, an excellent book on the material aspct of the
renaissance, I came across something interesting:

"Armed with Behaim's carotgraphically precise globe, with its functional
commercial annotatoins, the Nuremberg merchants set out to raise the backing
for an expedition westwards, in search of an alternative access route to the
coveted spice islands. In 1492, they approached the German Emperor
Maximilian. Their attempt to interest him in a business proposition,
however, got nowhere-it was neither Maximilian's temperament nor part of his
financial power-brokeing tactics tos peculate in trade. " (298)

Unfortunately, sailing from Hamburg or Antwerp isn't likely to end up with
you htiting the Carribean. But... dare I suggest that perhaps german
colonies are not quite as far fetched as we once thought?

Okay, so the set up. In 1493, sailors set forth from Hamburg. And lo, they
discover a new world. The current would apparently push them towards the
carribean, I think. Am I wrong?

And now what?
 

Susano

Banned
For how long can spanish and German Expeditions avoid each other? Both would meddle in the Northern Caribic.... who ends up with Cuba, or Haiti? I guess the Spanish are just stronger, and will push the Germans out of the best places.
So what if the Germans, desperate, try to explore the surroundings, and discover the atztec-hold central mexican coast? Cortez didnt win with many troops (so its doable), but with incredible luck and an alliance of atztec vasalls. At least the latter factor can be achieved by about everybdoy standing up against the atztecs with funny weapons and animals...
 
It's not that it wouldn't be possible for German traders to go to the americas, but 1492 is too late a point for colonisation to be effective. The problem is pretty much outlined inthe POD: Nuremberg merchants petition the emperor, who is not interested. there would not ber anything in it for him, or for his high-ranking nobles, because trade is a city thing. In other nations, the kings furthered certain kinds of trade because they could run it as a royal monopoly (Portugal, Spain) or because it created wealth collectable thropugh customs duties. In germany, the wealth would have disappeared into the pockets of many local rulers greedily inventing new 'taxes' and 'duties' or the coffers of burghers, with very little left to the emperor. The creation of a secure trade route from Hamburg to the Americas would probably end up the lesser problem compared to creating one from Hamburg to Nuremberg.

Now, if you give this world a greater degree of central or regional authority in Germany you are going somewhere. Maybe if we married this thread to the Premyslid domination of the 14th century empire and posit a northern 'counterweight regional power' to Greater Bohemia and Poland we could end up with a state in a position to exploit its discoveries more effectively.

According to my mother's old school atlas, the trade winds are unfavorable to a more northern crossing, so a ship from Hamburg would most profitably either go through the Channely and the Bay of Biscay to cross with the trade winds to the Caribbean, or pass north of Scotland via the Faroes, Iceland and Greenland to the Maritimes and New England. Either would present the merchants with a tempting opportunity to do business (I can just see the eyes of Hanse merchants light up when they set eyes on the Grand Banks fisheries. New Schonen, that'll be the name, and the next item on the agenda will be providing enough salt, cheaply and by preference locally. Where could you get it? Is there an established salt trade locally? I can see the salt rather than the fur trade becoming the first contact context for the natives (though furs will follow soon).

If they reach the Caribbean, they'll need to deal with the Spanish. Of course if they get to be Lutheran they will do so GLADLY :D I still think the military prospects for outright victory are slim. By the 1500s, the Spanish have the best army in the world and their warships are bad news for rather antiquated German keels. An informal partition, on the other hand, would be feasible. Maybe some kind of three-way Tordesillas: the Indies to the Portuguese, the West Indies and South America to the Spanish, and everything north of Cuba to the Germans? They'll grumble, but I'm pretty sure the Spanish would see it as enough of a victory. At least for the first 50 years or so.
 

Faeelin

Banned
carlton_bach said:
It's not that it wouldn't be possible for German traders to go to the americas, but 1492 is too late a point for colonisation to be effective. The problem is pretty much outlined inthe POD: Nuremberg merchants petition the emperor, who is not interested. there would not ber anything in it for him, or for his high-ranking nobles, because trade is a city thing. In other nations, the kings furthered certain kinds of trade because they could run it as a royal monopoly (Portugal, Spain) or because it created wealth collectable thropugh customs duties. In germany, the wealth would have disappeared into the pockets of many local rulers greedily inventing new 'taxes' and 'duties' or the coffers of burghers, with very little left to the emperor.

Counter example: Fuggers. The Emperor patronized them because they made him a good chunk of money on several occassions. In fact, given how maximillian ruled the low countries, I think it's eminently plausible that he'd want to make them richer.

The creation of a secure trade route from Hamburg to the Americas would probably end up the lesser problem compared to creating one from Hamburg to Nuremberg.

Actually germany was pretty economically knit during the 15th century. It only went to hell during the reformation. (For a good take on this, see if you can find a three volume set called the History of Modern Germany).

According to my mother's old school atlas, the trade winds are unfavorable to a more northern crossing, so a ship from Hamburg would most profitably either go through the Channely and the Bay of Biscay to cross with the trade winds to the Caribbean, or pass north of Scotland via the Faroes, Iceland and Greenland to the Maritimes and New England. Either would present the merchants with a tempting opportunity to do business (I can just see the eyes of Hanse merchants light up when they set eyes on the Grand Banks fisheries.

Indeed. OTL the hansa declined partly because they fished out the baltic.

New Schonen, that'll be the name, and the next item on the agenda will be providing enough salt, cheaply and by preference locally. Where could you get it? Is there an established salt trade locally? I can see the salt rather than the fur trade becoming the first contact context for the natives (though furs will follow soon).

New Schonen? Freetranslation says that means already.

If they reach the Caribbean, they'll need to deal with the Spanish. Of course if they get to be Lutheran they will do so GLADLY :D I still think the military prospects for outright victory are slim. By the 1500s, the Spanish have the best army in the world and their warships are bad news for rather antiquated German keels. An informal partition, on the other hand, would be feasible. Maybe some kind of three-way Tordesillas: the Indies to the Portuguese, the West Indies and South America to the Spanish, and everything north of Cuba to the Germans? They'll grumble, but I'm pretty sure the Spanish would see it as enough of a victory. At least for the first 50 years or so.

Certainly. Although German america would be neat, in a chaotic sort of way.
 

Redbeard

Banned
German merchants from the Hansa probably did see America long before Columbus, but had no idea that was anything. The Norse coloni in Greenland traded with mainly Iceland and Norway, and in Norway German Hansa merchants achieved a dominating influence in the medieval centuries. A City like Bergen was largely a German Merchants base, and I find it likely, that Hansa merchants regularly visited Greenland and also set foot on the American continent (Newfoundland).

If you want those merchants to to start a true colonisation your main PoD would probably have to be more stable political conditions in Northern Europe. No matter if it is a Scandinavian King taking over or the Hansa or some North German Prince taking over (Scandinavia, Baltic and N.Germany) I guess the Hansa cities will be the driving economical force, and if central power decides to back up expeditions/settlers Hansa merchants will probably be the ones doing the actual work.

Apparently the last Norsemen left Greenland somewhen in late 15th century, but PoD would be preferrable before 1380, when trade declined after the loss of an important cargoship. That makes the Kalmar Union a bit late although there is written evidence of the settlement as late as 1408 (a wedding). Valdemar IV of Denmark, who was King 1340-75 and successfully reraised the power of the Danish throne, could provide the PoD. He died only 55 years old but very powerful and to a large degree started the decline of the Hansa as an independent political force. Have him live 10 years more and there is a good chance that a large part of the Hansa cities are included permanently in a central royal power. Although the flag flying might be royal and Scandinavian, the money running the show and the language in which it is counted will be north "Lowland" German (Platdeutsch).

Alternatively you could also have a PoD by having Valdemar loose his first fight against the North German Noblemen in 1340's. In OTL most of the Kingdom had litterally been pawned to Holstein Counts, but based on a popular revolt Valdemar simply threw them out and killed those not fast enough. If the German counts can defend their possession I guess we have the basis of a very powerful N. German entity fully capable of mounting a N.American settlement before 1492.

I wonder if some descendant of one of the Holstein Counts one day will claim back his forefathers rightful possessions? In a legal sense I guess Valdemar was just a (Royal) robber. But OK, in international relations only one § is really valid, and it goes like this: "If you really want it, then try and come and get it!"

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Laurenburg's Caribbean Colony

Laurenburg, just south of Schleswig and Holstein did have a Caribbean colony or trading post. It didn't pay and they dumped it.
As far as salt for the fish goes, Germany produced salt on the Rhine and the Baltic because Germany is underlain by the Zechstein, one of the great salt basins of the world. If that salt went away, Germany would be underwater. It would go to the new world in the empty boats going out, and come back in the barrels with the salt fish. However, mostly they just dried cod on the shore in NewFoundland.
There are salt lagoons in Bermuda and the Bahamas. Very shallow areas that you can commercially make salt in.
 
Greenland mines

There are several mines in Greenland. Some lead/zinc/silver and gold mines. What starved out the colony was not being able to find anything to sell to the Europeans for food during crop failures, and metals for blacksmithing for hunting/fishing/herding/farming.
If they found even one of the mines they would have given the Europeans reason to make journeys back and forth to Greenland, and to work the mine the Greenlanders would have had to go to Labrador for wood for pitprops and smelting. Then it would have more or less been inevitable for the discovery of the Americas to have taken place five hundred years earlier.
Of course we Europeans would not have been able to conquer the Americas at that time because we didn't have the weapons capability, even if we did have the disease capability. We also were about to get zapped ourselves with Black Plague from Asia around then.
 
Faeelin said:
New Schonen? Freetranslation says that means already.

Online translations, a lot of times, don't work. Germans are also a little strange with names of cities and such. For example, the German city Essen? "Essen" is a noun that means "to eat". So "schonen" may literally mean "already" (I can't remember if it does or not), but it may theoretically make sense.
 

Susano

Banned
Actually, Schonen is, also by coincidence I guess, also a verb, but I cant find an english translation.
Its like... when you do not want to use equipment or persons, to not exhause them etc, you do this action.. "schonen".

Anyways, fish seems to be a valuable ressource for any German city to be in New Foundland. Which however means any settlmenets will remain very sea-focussed. No colonies deeper inland...
 
Faeelin said:
Counter example: Fuggers. The Emperor patronized them because they made him a good chunk of money on several occassions. In fact, given how maximillian ruled the low countries, I think it's eminently plausible that he'd want to make them richer.

True, but the Fugger spent an awful lot of time and money navigating difficulties they would not have had in other countries. There was more than enough long-distance trade, but until the mid-16th century there were perpetual troubles negotiationg the exact route with local potenates and criminals (the dividing line could be thin). I'm not saying it wouldn't be possible, but once it happens in competition withother countries, Germany acts at a disadvantage.

New Schonen? Freetranslation says that means already.

Schonen is the place in Sweden where the herring used to come from.
 

Redbeard

Banned
carlton_bach said:
Schonen is the place in Sweden where the herring used to come from.


The southern tip of present Sweden marking the eastern limit of Oeresund and was until 1658 a part of Denmark. Called "Skåne" in the local lingo or "Scania" in latin (and English?), "Schonen" in German. It was said that in medieval times the Heering stood so densely in the Oresund, that a spear could stand upright amongst them (!). But anyway a lot were catched, salted and sold at the great market at Skanör in Skåne, and in many ways made up the basis of the region's wealth. I guess the smell from the market may have given Shakespeare inspiration for his quote in Hamlet: "There is something rotten in the state of Denmark!"

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
NewFoundland

Susano said:
Actually, Schonen is, also by coincidence I guess, also a verb, but I cant find an english translation.
Its like... when you do not want to use equipment or persons, to not exhause them etc, you do this action.. "schonen".

Anyways, fish seems to be a valuable ressource for any German city to be in New Foundland. Which however means any settlmenets will remain very sea-focussed. No colonies deeper inland...

The original NewFoundland fisher fleets would burn down any building in NewFoundland to make sure that no local government would form to tax them. You were only allowed to build drying racks on the shore. The captain of the first fishing boat to make the journey in the spring was the settlement captain. This is an IIRC memory, not to be depended on.
 

Faeelin

Banned
carlton_bach said:
True, but the Fugger spent an awful lot of time and money navigating difficulties they would not have had in other countries. There was more than enough long-distance trade, but until the mid-16th century there were perpetual troubles negotiationg the exact route with local potenates and criminals (the dividing line could be thin). I'm not saying it wouldn't be possible, but once it happens in competition withother countries, Germany acts at a disadvantage. .

Heh. Makes you wonder about a united renaissance Germany.

And thanks for the info on Schonen.
 
Winds & Geography

In the Atlantic Ocean west of Europe, the prevailing winds tend to be from west to east, so it was very difficult to sail due west from Europe to North America. The most common route was to sail south-southwest down to the tropical latitudes, where the trade winds usually blow from east to west. Then, you could sail across to the Caribbean. If you wanted to go to North America, you would catch the Gulf Stream current and winds near Florida and go north and east along the coast of North America. Getting back to Europe was more straightforward - you just followed the prevailing winds and current east-northeast from the Caribbean or North America back to Europe. That's why sailing ships often took twice as long to get from, say, London to New York or Boston as they did to go back - the westward trip was a long half-circle down into the tropics and then back north, whereas the eastward trip was something much closer to a straight line.

The Spanish and Portuguese had a built-in advantage in this respect - they already controlled the islands in low latitudes of the eastern Atlantic that were natural stopping-places for ships going out to the Americas. Spain had the Canaries, Portugal had Madeira and the Azores. Ships from other countries that tried to stop here for resupply on an outward bound voyage risked getting seized, since it was pretty obvious that they were about to sail to territory that either Portugal or Spain claimed exclusive rights to. Obviously, English, French, and Dutch ships were able to work around this, but it could be a real obstacle.

If German merchants were interested in the more tropical areas of the "New World", they would have this same problem. If Charles of Hapsburg still becomes Carlos I of Spain and Karl V of the Holy Roman Empire, he may find himself on the horns of a dilemma as his Spanish subjects are objecting to the attempts by his German and possibly Flemish subjects to encroach on their territories. If he comes down clearly on the side of either the Spanish or the Germans he's going to make a lot of wealthy and influential subjects in his other lands really angry. He'll probably go for some sort of compromise - perhaps, like another poster has already suggested, the lands from Florida on northward to Newfoundland and Labrador are declared the German/Imperial "sphere of influence". Although there's no sign of gold or rich civilizations there yet, the fishing alone was worth a fortune and could turn around the declining fortunes of some Hanseatic cities. On the other hand, there are already Basque fishermen from northern Spain and southern France, plus Bretons, Normans, and Englishmen fishing off these banks. They certainly won't take kindly to Germans claiming a monopoly on fishing rights.

Overall, by adding another major player in the Americas it is quite likely that European colonization and European fighting for control of parts of the New World will come faster and sooner than in OTL.
 
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