Decades of Light

I going to take a stab at this with many thanks to Kaiser Wilhelm for
showing the way to write a time-line. And to the poster of Reverse DoD for
giving me the idea.

I don't have a set goal other than the result is that we have more free
United States earlier than OTL and that the USA undergoes maximum
expansion. I am not looking to develop a upotian end
result but rather something that is plausible.

So here is goes

-------------------------------------

Decades of Light Post #1: From the Ashes of Defeat

Guilford Courthouse
North Carolina, British North America
March 15th 1781

General Greene put down the telescope. Stunned by the sight before him.
Cornwallis broke the counterattack of the third line of American troops,
but at the cost of firing into his own troops. Again using the telescope
he examined the Continental troops and saw that they were reforming in
good order. Examining the British troops, the general saw the exhausted
men reforming into ragged lines. Scanning the battlefield he spotted
Colonel Tarleton rallying troops, and on the far hill Cornwallis himself
making a similar survey. "Tarleton's quarter" he thought.
Again putting down the telescope, Greene came to a decision. The
opportunity was too good to pass and his troops were in far better shape.
Time to bag General Cornwallis and Tarleton.
Turning to his aide, "Give the order that we make another attack".

Timeline of the United States of America

Excerpts taken from Charles Courtney.s .1775 to 1783, The First War for
American Independence .. (c)1903: University of Pennsylvania Press.
Used with permission.

BATTLE OF GUILFORD COURTHOUSE
The Battle of Guilford Court House was a battle fought on March 15, 1781
just outside of the present-day city of Greensboro, North Carolina, during
the First War for American Independence. The battle saw 1,900 British
troops, under General Charles Cornwallis, fighting an American force,
under Rhode Islander General Nathaniel Greene, numbering 4,400.
The battle began after General Conwallis marched 12 mile from
Little Horsepen Creek and attacking the American position at Guilford
Court House. After forcing the first and second line of American troops to
retreat, British forces attacked the third line of 1,400 Continental
Regulars. Slowed by the rough terrain the left and right flanks of the
American forces attacked the British advance. The left side repelled the
British while Washington.s Cavalry destroyed the British right.
Collapse seemed imminent when Cornwallis gave the order to the
newly arrived artillery to fire right into the melee. This temporally
halted the American attack. General Greene, sensing imminent victory,
ordered fresh attacks. Again Cornwallis ordered the artillery to fire into
the ensuing melee. The American were again halted. Cornwallis then ordered the troops to reform and retreat from the battlefield. Greene bloodied twice by the British Artillery ordered his men to stand their ground
allowing Cornwallis to retreat.
The final count was 153 killed and 401 wounded for the Americans.
312 killed and 732 wounded for the British. The battle forced Cornwallis
to fall back onto his base in Wilmington and secured the independence of
North Carolina

Earl Cornwallis to Gen. Clinton . March 23rd, 1781
Papers of the Continental Congress M247 roll 175 vol 1 pg. 529
National Historical Records Administration
Transcribed by John Markland

COPY

Wilmington March 23rd 1781

Sir,

It is my regret to inform you that on the morning of the 15th that my
attack on General Greene's army failed. Nearly a thousand were killed &
wounded. We were forced to leave the field of battle and retreat to our
base in Wilmington.

It is my firm conculsion that without destroying those in rebellion in our
Province of Virginia there is little I can do to bring lasting victory in
the southern provinces. However with the losses I have suffered, I have
not the forces to advance into Virginia. I will refit and gain what
reinforcement I can here in Wilmington and await the orders of General
Clinton.

I have dispatched Col. Tarlton to aid loyal milita
against any rebel forces in South Carolina.

I am &c. &c. &c.

(Signed) Cornwallis

Our loss is about 1000 killed & wounded, chiefly of the 23d Regt, 33rd
Regt, and 71st Hldrs.

Gen. Clinton to Earl Cornwallis . April 14th, 1781
Papers of the Continental Congress M247 roll 175 vol 1 pg. 530
National Historical Records Administration
Transcribed by John Markland

COPY

New York, April 14th 1781

Sir,

You are hereby ordered to remain in the southern provinces and not advance into Virginia. You are ordered to continue to seek and engage the army of General Greene and any other rebel forces in the provinces of South Carolina and Georgia.

Along with these orders I have dispatched 3,500 men to reinforce your
position.

I am &c. &c. &c.

(Signed) Clinton

Timeline taken from Charles Courtney.s .1775 to 1783, The First War for
American Independence .. (c)1903: University of Pennsylvania Press.
Used with permission.

1781
..
April 28th to 29th Second Battle of Camden SC
General Greene, attempting to retake South Carolina, successfully provokes
Lord Francis Rawdon into attacking his position outside of Camden on
Hobkirk's Hill. Stronger than expected attacks forced Greene's forces off
Hobkirk's Hill and across Wateree River. On the 29th attacks by Col
William Washington's Cavalry force Rawdon's troops to retreat back to
Camden. Greene was left holding the field of battle but losses forced him
to retreat back into North Carolina.

April 24th to April 27th , Fort Watson SC
Francis Marion attempts to siege Fort Watson but was killed in a surprise
attack by the British Legion led by Colonel Tarleton.

May 23rd to 25th, Charlotteburg NC
In a three day battle Cornwallis and Greene fought to a standstill. Green
is forced to retreat deeper into North Carolina but Cornwallis, facing
partisan activity in South Carolina, eventually abandons Charlotteburg and
retreats back to hold the Camden-Charleston corridor.

June 27th to July 2nd, Third Battle of Camden SC
Greene, refreshed and reinforced, launches a two prong attack into South Carolina, The first is a diversionary force led by Daniel Morgan aimed at St Marks on the Santee River to make Cornwallis believe that he making an attempt to cut him off from Charleston. Colonel Tarleton and the British Legion however successfully scouts out the true size of Morgan's forces and Cornwallis elects to stay in Camden sending reinforcements to Tarleton.
When Greene arrives at Camden he attempts to siege Cornwallis'
forces but gives up after six days and retreats back into North Carolina.

June 28th, St Marks SC
Colonel Tarleton defeat Daniel Morgan troops in the pinelands
north of St Marks. Morgan is captured and hanged by Tarleton adding to his reputation of giving no quarter.

September 4th, Verazzano Narrows, NY
24 ships under the command of French Admiral DeGrasse meet 19
ships of Admiral Grave and Hood at the entrance to New York Harbor. The actual naval battle was a stalemate but had an huge impact on the subsequent battle of New York when British forces could no longer receive supplies.

September 6th, New York City
Gen. George Washington and Lt. Gen. Comte de Rochambeau take up position around New York City cutting General Clinton forces from any hope of resupply.

September 13th New York City
Allied bombardment of New York City begins.

September 24th New York City
General Clinton surrenders all British forces in New York City

October 14th, Mount Burgwins NC
Greene, while attempting to march on Wilmington, is met by
Cornwallis' forces near Mount Burgwins. In a pitched one day battle,
Cornwallis' forces were left holding the field of battle with Greene
retreating back into North Carolina. This was the last major battle of the
First War of American Independence.

Excerpts taken from Charles Courtney.s .1775 to 1783, The First War for
American Independence .. (c)1903: University of Pennsylvania Press.
Used with permission.

Treaty of Paris, July 4th 1783

Summary
The treaty document was signed by David Hartley (a member of the British
Parliament representing the British Monarch, King George III), John
Monroe[1], Benjamin Franklin, and John Jay (representing the United
States).

* Recognizing South Carolina and Georgia as loyal British Provinces;
* The remaining colonies as eleven free and sovereign States
* Establishing the boundaries between the United States and British
North America
* Recognizing the lawful contracted debts to be paid to creditors on
either side;
* Granting fishing rights to United States fishermen in the Grand
Banks, off the coast of Newfoundland and in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence;
* United States will stop confiscation of property owned by loyal
British subjects (never implemented);
* Prisoners of war on both sides are to be released and all property
occupied by the British army in the United States to be left unmolested.
* Great Britain and the United States were each to be given perpetual
access to the Mississippi River;
* Territories captured by Americans subsequent to treaty will be
returned without compensation;
* Ratification of the treaty was to occur within six months from the
signing by the contracting parties

[1] John Adams was busy trying to convince the Netherlands, to recognize
the United States. The reverses in South Carolina and Georgia and Dutch
defeats in the Fourth Anglo-Dutch war dampened the enthusiasm for the
Hauge to give recognition to the United States.

[2] Map at
http://home.alltel.net/estar/na1783.jpg

(note don't read too much into the western boundaries of the l1 states. I
figure the western land controversy will figure heavily soon)
 
No. 10 Downing Street
London, United Kingdom
November 3rd 1781

Frederick North, Earl of Guilford, sat down with his tea and paper. As he was bringing the tea to his lips a frantic knocking was heard from the
door to the study. With a sigh he put down the tea. "Yes! Come in."
The servant came quickly through the door and set down a silver
platter with a letter on it. "This arrived marked urgent. My Lord."
"Thank you, Charles. Tell my secretary to be ready in case I need
a reply." answered Lord North.
As the servant left the room, Lord North opened the letter. As the
door to the study closed, North began to read. With a stunned look on his
face he dropped the letter to the floor.
Putting his head in his hands he shouted, "Oh God! It is finished!"

Timeline taken from Charles Courtney's "1775 to 1783, The First War for
American Independence ". (c)1903: University of Pennsylvania Press.
Used with permission.

May 8th 1781
Spanish Forces under Count Bernado de Galvez forced Pensacola, Florida to
surrender

December 16th 1781
The British West Indies Squadron under Sir George Rodney defeats
the combined Spanish and French Fleet at the Battle of Providence (Bahamas)

January 17th 1782
The British Legion, and Creek Indians under the command of Colonel
Tarleton defeat Count de Galvez's forces who were crossing the Tallapoosa
river in the state of Muscogee.

January to July 1782
Colonel Tarleton and Sir Rodney drives Spanish forces out of West Florida
using British and Indians forces to raid and cut off supply lines.

August 5th 1782
Colonel Tarleton, is defeated east of Baton Rouge, by a reformed Spanish
Army under Count de Galvez. Tarleton is forced to retreat back to Mobile.

No 10 Downing Street
London, United Kingdom
September 11th 1782

William Fitzmaurice, Earl of Sherburne, looked around the table at the
assembled ministers of his cabinet. Putting down the letter, he spoke, "I
think Baton Rouge settles the matter of Florida." With the ministers
nodding he continued "With our position firmly held in the southern
colonies, I think we can make our final proposal on American independence
to the French. "

The young Chancellor of the Exchequer, William Pitt, spoke up. "I know
that Lord Rockingham [1] felt that it would be better to grant all the
colonies independence including Georgia, and Carolina, to save ourselves
future trouble. But this government is built to rise above partisan
politics. With the rumors of Fox allying himself to North we can't afford
to alienate our Tory supporters. [2]"

The Earl then stood up. "I will send instructions to Mr. Hartley in Paris.
I believe this concludes our business today."

Parrtown, Sunbury County, Nova Scotia
October 14th 1782

Robert Forster looked at the Ship docked at the wharf. Coming down the
plank were dozens of men, women, and children clutching their last
possessions. Robert turned to his friend. "Damn that Continental Congress.
If they haven't ignored our last petitions we would have some of
Washington's troops up there to show these no good Loyalists where they
can go. Now King Geogre is shipping them up here to take our land."

Robert's friend Henry leaned over and whispered "Go to the Lanum's
farm tonight. The committee is starting up again and not only that Ethan
Allen of Vermont sent his lieutenants in the Green Mountain Boys up to
talk about what we can do."

Startled Robert whispered, "The Green Mountain Boys are getting
involved with us?"

Henry nodded, "Yup, they way it looks that for every Loyalist we
are getting, Carolina and Georgia are getting ten times the number. With
them are the troops protecting them reinforcing Cornwallis and good old
"Bloody" Tarleton. The Green Mountain Boys figured that with all that
attention on the south, maybe there is hope for us up north yet."

"I will be there." answered Robert.

Taken from "Columbia Historical Dictonary". 1914 edition.
Columbia Group Printers, New York City
Used with permission.

REPUBLIC OF MADAWASKA
Founded during the Winter Revolt on January 3rd 1783 in reaction
to the continuing influx of Loyalists. All of Sunbury County and
Cumberland County, Nova Scotia was declared part of the Republic after
Campobello was seized on the third. When the Patriots were driven out of
Campobello the capital moved to Parrtown and later still to Ste. Anne's
Point in the interior. There it remained until the incorporation of the
Republic into the United States after the Second War for American
Independence

Excerpt from Sharon Joyce's "They died as free men, Story of the Green
Mountain Boys". (c)1963: Bard & Rowe. Used with permission.

In the aftermath of the fall of New York City it was clear that
the British were determined to hold on to South Carolina and the south,
especially after Cornwallis' defeat of Greene in the Battle of Mt
Burgwins in October of 1781. After news of Greene defeat reached Vermont, the young republic decided to change its neutral stance and throw in its lot with the United States.

With New Hampshire and New York still blocking any formal
participation in the Continental Congress, Ethan Allen and the Green
Mountain Boys decided to take independent action. Ethan, his brother Ira,
his cousin Seth Warner split the Green Mountain Boys between them. Ethan
went south to the western foothills to help Franklin and Kentucky settlers
fight off British sponsored Indian raids. Seth went north to help organize
resistance in Quebec, While Ira went northeast into Nova Scotia.

Seth had the least luck of the three. They found little interest
for another revolt in Quebec. When Seth got sick in the spring, they
returned to Vermont. Ethan aided settlers in both Franklin and North
Carolina and became well regarded by both groups. Ira had spectacular
success in the western counties of Nova Scotia, igniting the Winter Revolt
which led to the founding of Madawaska. While much of Madawaska was over run by the British late in 1783. With aid of the Green Mountain Boys the interior of Madawaska remained under Patriot control until the whole state was ceded to the US after the Second War for American Independence.

[1] Charles Watson-Wentworth, Marquess of Rockingham was appointed Prime Minister after the resignation of Lord North and died in June (OTL July) of influenza. While this could be arguably be butterflied away, I am
conjecturing that there some underlying physical weakness or problem that
made influenza a particular danger to him in the summer of 1782.

[2] King George III still very much despises Charles James Fox. Now with
being passed over being prime minister twice is conspiring with Lord North
to bring down the government.
 
It is a good TL although there are some grammatical errors and spacing bits.

Here's a portion of your TL with spacing...
====================================
No. 10 Downing Street
London, United Kingdom
November 3rd 1781

Frederick North, Earl of Guilford, sat down with his tea and paper.

As he was bringing the tea to his lips a frantic knocking was heard from the
door to the study. With a sigh he put down the tea. "Yes! Come in."

The servant came quickly through the door and set down a silver
platter with a letter on it. "This arrived marked urgent. My Lord."

"Thank you, Charles. Tell my secretary to be ready in case I need
a reply." answered Lord North.

As the servant left the room, Lord North opened the letter. As the
door to the study closed, North began to read. With a stunned look on his
face he dropped the letter to the floor.

Putting his head in his hands he shouted, "Oh God! It is finished!"
-------------------
Timeline taken from Charles Courtney's "1775 to 1783, The First War for
American Independence ". (c)1903: University of Pennsylvania Press.
Used with permission.

May 8th 1781
Spanish Forces under Count Bernado de Galvez forced Pensacola, Florida to
surrender

December 16th 1781
The British West Indies Squadron under Sir George Rodney defeats
the combined Spanish and French Fleet at the Battle of Providence (Bahamas)

January 17th 1782
The British Legion, and Creek Indians under the command of Colonel
Tarleton defeat Count de Galvez's forces who were crossing the Tallapoosa
river in the state of Muscogee.

January to July 1782
Colonel Tarleton and Sir Rodney drives Spanish forces out of West Florida
using British and Indians forces to raid and cut off supply lines.

August 5th 1782
Colonel Tarleton, is defeated east of Baton Rouge, by a reformed Spanish
Army under Count de Galvez. Tarleton is forced to retreat back to Mobile.
----------------------------
No 10 Downing Street
London, United Kingdom
September 11th 1782

William Fitzmaurice, Earl of Sherburne, looked around the table at the
assembled ministers of his cabinet. Putting down the letter, he spoke, "I
think Baton Rouge settles the matter of Florida." With the ministers
nodding he continued "With our position firmly held in the southern
colonies, I think we can make our final proposal on American independence
to the French. "

The young Chancellor of the Exchequer, William Pitt, spoke up. "I know
that Lord Rockingham [1] felt that it would be better to grant all the
colonies independence including Georgia, and Carolina, to save ourselves
future trouble. But this government is built to rise above partisan
politics. With the rumors of Fox allying himself to North we can't afford
to alienate our Tory supporters. [2]"

The Earl then stood up. "I will send instructions to Mr. Hartley in Paris.
I believe this concludes our business today."
======================

The usage of short bits in TTL's is kind of interesting. While I'm not too sure what has happened - it's really different and yet similar to DoD so that one can spot the origin of the TL. I would say as a weathered reader to;

1) put ----- between small POV's of different characters
2) proofread :)rolleyes:- I'm a hypocrite)
3) somehow block your words so that they are

within the center instead of going off the "bloc" of print​

Perhaps clicking on the series of lines next to the Underline feature of the posting bit would work....

Otherwise from that, good work, and I hope that you'll bring a rabbit out of the hat on this supposed Second War of Independence.
 

NomadicSky

Banned
I did a timeline where the Georgia and South Carolina remained with the British Empire

Georgia.png
 
Madawaska what????

Where did this revolt spring from.

there were huge waves of loyalists into Nova Scotia OTL and this did not provoke the response you have here so I think the Probablility of an open revolt along the lines you posit is probalby about zero.

In addition, with the stronger British presence in the south one could argue that they maintain their presence in the NW north of the Ohio at the very least. Some kind of joint occupancy a la Oregon say if not out right control of the whole terr. I certainly don't see them dismantling any forts in the region any time soon. Despite the achievements of George Rogers Clark, the British presence in the south and their continued presence at Detroit makes their continued presence in the NW an inevitability in some format.

Also the Maine border should be disputed of course as the northern third will be claimed by the Brits as part of Nova Scotia.

Just how many loyalists are we looking at this TL. Argueably you could have more this time around with SC and Georgia remaining with the Crown. OTl about 30-35,000 went to NS (NS/NB/PEI) and about 10,000 to Quebec/Canada.
 
AuroraBorealis said:
Where did this revolt spring from.

there were huge waves of loyalists into Nova Scotia OTL and this did not provoke the response you have here so I think the Probablility of an open revolt along the lines you posit is probalby about zero.

According to Wikipedia (and roughly confirmed by spot checks around the
web) around 70,000 loyalist and their slaves left the US. 46,000 to
canada, 7,000 to Britain, 17,000 to the Carribbean.

I figure with Georgia still around in British hand it would be 7,000 to
Canada, 3,000 to Britain, and 50,000 to Georgia/Caribbean. Note 10,000
less loyalist because of the retention of SC/GA

Of the 46,000 in OTL to canada 10,000 went to Upper Canada, and the
Eastern townships. The rest to Nova Scotia. So any patriots in NS/NB
were just swamped by the influx of Loyalist finally killing any chance
of a 14th colony joining.

In both Time-line Nova Scotia had 20,000+ people before the War.

ITTL I figure that 3000 goto the Eastern Township, virtual none to
Upper Canada, and 4000 to Nova Scotia. 20000 versus 4000 newcomers
means that patriots have a lot better chance than OTL 20000 versus
32000 newcomers.

Even with the improved odds the patriots got driven back into the backwoods where they hung on until the Second War of American Independence.

AuroraBorealis said:
In addition, with the stronger British presence in the south one could argue that they maintain their presence in the NW north of the Ohio at the very least. Some kind of joint occupancy a la Oregon say if not out right control of the whole terr. I certainly don't see them dismantling any forts in the region any time soon. Despite the achievements of George Rogers Clark, the British presence in the south and their continued presence at Detroit makes their continued presence in the NW an inevitability in some format.

The Rockingham and Shelburne government were very pro-american are not likely to do this. From reading up on Rockingham, the most plausible outcome would he given the US, South Carolina and Geogria.

But ITTL he died like OTL and Shelbourne is faced with holding together what is a government comprised of Rockingham Whigs and anti-North Tories. Fox has bolted and is now conspiring with North to bring down the government. So Shelbourne will relent on the Ohio but will not give up South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida.

And looming in the mix is Joesph Brant who has a few opinions on the subjects.

AuroraBorealis said:
Also the Maine border should be disputed of course as the northern third will be claimed by the Brits as part of Nova Scotia.

That correct. The young United States have some challenges ahead and I have some ideas on how they will overcome them.
 
Nice!

I really like this timeline so far. I started a sketch on OTL.com awhile back with the same premise of a freer USA, but a different POD (slaves join the Continental Army). I like this idea better; the POD is subtler.

Ideas for the future: according to James Loewen's Lies My Teacher Told Me (among other sources), the desire to expand slave lands played a huge role in the early USA's antagonism towards Natives, especially during the War of 1812. Without that impetus (and with the British playing balance-of-power, too), the Cherokee, Chippewa, and even the Iroquois and other tribes could survive.
 
I agree that diminished (or lack of) slavery will alter indian relationship (for the better) but right now I am astonished at the population imbalence between the indians and the US. The iriquoius at their height had 20,000, the shawnee a couple of thousand.

While one of my goals is to have a better outcome for the indians. I think that the population difference is going to pretty much determine that the path will be some type of incorporation within white society.
 
robertsconley said:
I agree that diminished (or lack of) slavery will alter indian relationship (for the better) but right now I am astonished at the population imbalence between the indians and the US. The iriquoius at their height had 20,000, the shawnee a couple of thousand.

While one of my goals is to have a better outcome for the indians. I think that the population difference is going to pretty much determine that the path will be some type of incorporation within white society.
True, by 1789 disease had literally decimated virtually every tribe east of the Mississippi. It's a lot harder to "save" the Indians in any timeline that starts after 1620.

The problem is compounded by the http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/rc_070400_populationof.htm
breakneck speed at which the rest of the US population grows -- 33% per decade. Without immigration, it would be hard for a pre-industrial society to break 10% per decade growth.
 

Faeelin

Banned
You know, I just had a thought.

You're going to see the Carolinas and George dominated by the planters, right? With resistance from the upcountry scotch-irish farmers, among others?

The Scotch-Irish intermarried with the Cherokees, among other tribes. Perhaps the Civilized Tribes are instrumental in gaining victory in the 2nd American Revolution.
 
Faeelin said:
You know, I just had a thought.

You're going to see the Carolinas and George dominated by the planters, right? With resistance from the upcountry scotch-irish farmers, among others?

The Scotch-Irish intermarried with the Cherokees, among other tribes. Perhaps the Civilized Tribes are instrumental in gaining victory in the 2nd American Revolution.

Be careful with that though there is evidence that some of the wealthier among the civilized tribes, for example within the Cherokee, that actually owned slaves. So it won't be clean cut, but it is a good idea. If you haven't read Rivers of War by Eric Flint it gives so good detail on the Cherokee, also I thought it was a good AH read.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Shadow Knight said:
Be careful with that though there is evidence that some of the wealthier among the civilized tribes, for example within the Cherokee, that actually owned slaves.

Sure. This is a sign of successful assimilation into American society.

(Honestly, why is Jackson on our twenty?)
 
Shadow Knight said:
Be careful with that though there is evidence that some of the wealthier among the civilized tribes, for example within the Cherokee, that actually owned slaves. So it won't be clean cut, but it is a good idea. If you haven't read Rivers of War by Eric Flint it gives so good detail on the Cherokee, also I thought it was a good AH read.
True, but there are also lots of Triracial Isolates in the English-speaking colonies. Considering that triracial integration won out in large portions of Latin America, it wouldn't be impossible for the English-speaking part to have a change of heart, too.
 
Tom Veil said:
True, but there are also lots of Triracial Isolates in the English-speaking colonies. Considering that triracial integration won out in large portions of Latin America, it wouldn't be impossible for the English-speaking part to have a change of heart, too.

Certaintly, but I was just making the case that not all of the civilised tribes may join this 2nd American Revolution. Some might just join the whites who are oppressing the blacks...which could be interesting in of itself.
 
robertsconley said:
According to Wikipedia (and roughly confirmed by spot checks around the
web) around 70,000 loyalist and their slaves left the US. 46,000 to
canada, 7,000 to Britain, 17,000 to the Carribbean.

I figure with Georgia still around in British hand it would be 7,000 to
Canada, 3,000 to Britain, and 50,000 to Georgia/Caribbean. Note 10,000
less loyalist because of the retention of SC/GA

Of the 46,000 in OTL to canada 10,000 went to Upper Canada, and the
Eastern townships. The rest to Nova Scotia. So any patriots in NS/NB
were just swamped by the influx of Loyalist finally killing any chance
of a 14th colony joining.

In both Time-line Nova Scotia had 20,000+ people before the War.

ITTL I figure that 3000 goto the Eastern Township, virtual none to
Upper Canada, and 4000 to Nova Scotia. 20000 versus 4000 newcomers
means that patriots have a lot better chance than OTL 20000 versus
32000 newcomers.

Even with the improved odds the patriots got driven back into the backwoods where they hung on until the Second War of American Independence.



The Rockingham and Shelburne government were very pro-american are not likely to do this. From reading up on Rockingham, the most plausible outcome would he given the US, South Carolina and Geogria.

But ITTL he died like OTL and Shelbourne is faced with holding together what is a government comprised of Rockingham Whigs and anti-North Tories. Fox has bolted and is now conspiring with North to bring down the government. So Shelbourne will relent on the Ohio but will not give up South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida.

And looming in the mix is Joesph Brant who has a few opinions on the subjects.



That correct. The young United States have some challenges ahead and I have some ideas on how they will overcome them.

I would agree with your assessment on the western territories. From an economic point of view it probably makes sense for the Brits to give them up. They are not inconsequential, but not essential to British mercantile interests.

As to the rebellion... You still did not answer the why? As in why it occurred.
It makes no sense. The ostensible reason is British diversion southward. What, they are abandonning a strong presence in Halifax? Doubtful?

With the removal of the New England states from the Empire with the declaration of independance, Nova Scotia gained ascendency in the North Atlantic trade with Britain and the Caribbean. They will have no interest in throwing that away. That leaves your influx of loyalists. Far less in this TL than OTL. If there was no revolt OTL then why suddenly would there be one now? OtL they came to the peninsula as well as the St. John valley. With considerably less of them they are hardly going to be taking anyone's farm's. Instead you will have an orderly settlement of the St. John, with far less hardship than occurred OTL with far more organization.

As to the rebellion itself It would be stamped out of existance at the behest of the colonial government by '85 at the latest...its leaders hanged if they did not flee to the US. Thus, I doubt your Madawaska Rep. would even exist on paper by the time you get around to the Second War of American independence.


One point you are missing...with more places to go one could easily posit a much stronger loyalist migration to the areas remaining in he Empire. At the DOI it is generally considered that as much as a third of the population was Tory..with an equal number of Patriots. A stronger migration of Loyalists from the outset is a far more credible outcome than this Winter rebellion you have manufactured. Rather than lower numbers your more likely to see larger numbers overall. Even if you simply doubled them thats only 150,000 out of a total of 900,000 to 1 million generally conservative Tories that would have preferred a compromise with Britain than out right Independence.
 
Faeelin said:
You know, I just had a thought.

You're going to see the Carolinas and George dominated by the planters, right? With resistance from the upcountry scotch-irish farmers, among others?

The Scotch-Irish intermarried with the Cherokees, among other tribes. Perhaps the Civilized Tribes are instrumental in gaining victory in the 2nd American Revolution.

That was my line of thinking, of course again like anything else with this time-line the trick is making it plausible. But even knowing that it will be (hopefully) an interesting journey.
 
AuroraBorealis said:
As to the rebellion... You still did not answer the why? As in why it occurred.
It makes no sense. The ostensible reason is British diversion southward. What, they are abandonning a strong presence in Halifax? Doubtful?
Now I understand where you are coming from. It was mentioned but in a subtle manner

"Damn that Continental Congress.
If they haven't ignored our last petitions we would have some of
Washington's troops up there to show these no good Loyalists where they
can go. Now King Geogre is shipping them up here to take our land."

Robert is referring to the fact that the western part of nova scotia (New Brunswick) petitioned the Continental Congress to join the revolution as a 14th colony in 1775. What is now New Brunswick was settled mostly by New Englanders with Arcadians in the backwoods. Today's Nova Scotia was more heavily Tory and of course had the all important base at Halifax.

AuroraBorealis said:
With the removal of the New England states from the Empire with the declaration of independance, Nova Scotia gained ascendency in the North Atlantic trade with Britain and the Caribbean. They will have no interest in throwing that away.
The eastern part yes, the western part no. They had many of the same grievances as the rest of New England. And being ignored by Congress led to British control by default. But with the influx of Loyalist they are feeling threatened. In OTL this came to nothing because they were literally overrun with loyalist and rebels had no chance what so ever. But in this time-line the lower immigration led them to take action and intially to defeat.

AuroraBorealis said:
That leaves your influx of loyalists. Far less in this TL than OTL. If there was no revolt OTL then why suddenly would there be one now? OtL they came to the peninsula as well as the St. John valley. With considerably less of them they are hardly going to be taking anyone's farm's. Instead you will have an orderly settlement of the St. John, with far less hardship than occurred OTL with far more organization.
The premise was there was no revolt in OTL there was it just fizzled when nothing was forthcoming from Congress. Remember there was a period of time when things were getting organized by the Committee of Correspondence and Nova Scotia had one.

AuroraBorealis said:
As to the rebellion itself It would be stamped out of existance at the behest of the colonial government by '85 at the latest...its leaders hanged if they did not flee to the US. Thus, I doubt your Madawaska Rep. would even exist on paper by the time you get around to the Second War of American independence.
The idea it was stamped out (where it mattered) by 1785, The leader's weren't caught because of aid by the Green Mountain Boys. They set themselves up in the backwoods. The British only reacted when they made a raid and intended at some point when time and money permitted to clear the backwoods out. But before they got the chance the Second War will have intervened.

AuroraBorealis said:
One point you are missing...with more places to go one could easily posit a much stronger loyalist migration to the areas remaining in he Empire. At the DOI it is generally considered that as much as a third of the population was Tory..with an equal number of Patriots. A stronger migration of Loyalists from the outset is a far more credible outcome than this Winter rebellion you have manufactured. Rather than lower numbers your more likely to see larger numbers overall. Even if you simply doubled them thats only 150,000 out of a total of 900,000 to 1 million generally conservative Tories that would have preferred a compromise with Britain than out right Independence.
The real question is it plausible that a Winter Revolt occured. I choose to use an obscure point of history. Sure the butterflies could have went another way. But I contend even with Georgia and South Carolina in the British fold Loyalist migration will be more difficult not easiers. This is because New York City is under American control and there is no orderly evacuation of the single largest group of loyalists under British Control. The border at South Carolina mean that tories fleeing Virigina and North Carolina have an easier time of it. Also any withdrawals from the other British Enclaves are going to go to the south to reinforce their position there (especially South Carolina). Finally the various groups that make up the American Revolution are 'pissed' that they lost two of the colonies. The most radical of which (Vermont for example) will try to hurt Britain in the closing days. For the remainder we will see how it plays out.

Enjoy
Rob Conley
 
See if I got some better formatting going here.
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Decades of Light Post #3: A House in Turmoil

White Plains, New York
January 6th 1783
Head Quarters, New York, January 6th 1783.

Having read an anonymous paper raising matters of concern to this army The Command in Chief believes that the good sense of his officers would induce them to pay little attention to any irregular invitations that may be forthcoming. His duty, as well as the good name and interest of this army, require his disapprobation of any disorderly proceeding resulting thereof. At the same time he directs that each company appoint an officer to attend an orderly meeting at 12 o'clock on January 15th . After an orderly and mature discussion, this meeting will devise what further measures to attain the just and important matters that are of concern. The senior officer in rank will preside over said meeting and report any resolved made to the Commander in Chief.

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Henry Knox [1]
White Plains, New York
January 15th 1783


While taking my customary seat in the front, I watched the representatives of the different regiments make their way into the building. Then Gates strolled in and took up the chair at the head of the room. What a pompous ass, I thought to myself. Benedict had to turn traitor, leaving good old Horatio with sole credit for Saratoga. Then after which his intrigues nearly brought down the Army.

Watching him straightened the gravel on the desk I could only think that now his intrigues involves the fate of the nation. Listening to the angry voices being raised in the various groups around the room I could only wonder whether we will see the downfall of the cause today.

Looking at Gates smug expression I cursed myself for contributing this folly. I am not sure what I can say now after voicing so many of the same concerns on pay, and land as my fellow officers.

My thoughts were interrupted by the pounding of the gravel by General Gates. He shouted "This assembled meeting will now come to order." He pounded a few more times as he likes to do and the officers quickly took to their seats. Robert Morris stood up with a paper in his hand. I winced when I saw that, I know from reading the papers that the Commander gave me two nights ago that Robert is going to propose more than just a simple petition to Congress.

As we waited for the last officers to get settled, the door was opened by Billy, the general's valet. Hobbling into the room was Commander himself. [2] The silence that descended on the room was deafening. This was unexpected, he did not said not a word to me when we met.

We all watched in silence he slowly walked with his cane up to the head of the room. Putting his hand on the desk he got out a piece of paper and looked at us and began to speak. He spoke of the anonymous summon, the complaints we had about pay, land, and the conditions we live under. He spoke of the other letter, and how unpatriotic it was to suggest the conspiracy it outlined and the betrayal of liberty that would result if its recommendations were carried out. I winced at the anger in his voice at all of us. But looking around I saw not many shared my shame. "The great man is losing us" I thought.

When he finished and looked and saw the still sullen faces of the officers. He set his cane next to the desk and began to draw another paper from his pocket. His face winced in pain and he collapsed on the floor.

Immediately myself and several other bolted from our seats to his side. He waved to show he was all right. We helped him up and held while he steadied himself. He looked at me and the other around. "Gentlemen, this injury of mine wasn't in battle. But it has served to remind me of the greater sacrifice that so many others made in the service of our country."

As I returned to my seat, I was astounded at the reaction of nearly everyone. Many had tears, the rest just a look of a man coming to his senses. I was impressed that even Alex was crying. The Commander read the rest of the letter, some missive from a governor about what will do for the army. But it didn't matter, because that simple fall showed us that it had to stop here. It showed us the Commander suffers as we do, it showed us that other made a far bigger sacrifice in liberty's name.

After he read the letter, he hobbled out of the room. After the door closed I got up and proposed that we all re-affirm our oaths as officers of the United States. The noise of people standing was deafening as nearly everyone to a man stood up. General Gates led us through the oath swearing and we shouted as one voice as to make sure the whole camp heard. Then Alex went up to the table and proceeded to write out a proclamation of our loyalty and was the first to sign it and one by one the rest of us went to sign it as well.

I left the meeting uncertain of my fortune, but certain in the fortune of my country.

Taken from "Columbia Historical Dictonary". 1914 edition.
Columbia Group Printers, New York City
Used with permission.

THE WHITE PLAINS CABAL

A group of disgruntled Continental Army Officers led by Robert Morris and Alexander Hamiltion intent on forcing the Continental Congress to address their grievances. The Cabal was disbanded by General George Washington when he arrived at a meeting of the Cabal members and addressed the officers. During the address he collapsed to the floor due a leg injury. When helped back to his feet he said

"Gentlemen, this injury of mine wasn't in battle. But it has served to remind me of the greater sacrifice that so many others made in the service of our country."

This simple statement illustrating his own personal injuries and highlighting the sacrifices of other veterans affected the officers present so much that it broke the cabal.

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Timeline taken from Andrew Mackenzie's "A House in Turmoil, Downfall of the Confederation". (c)1923: Tsalagi State University. Used with permission.

January 4th 1783
The Trenton issues it decree, ordering the transfer of the Wyoming Valley to from Connecticut to Pennsylvania

January 15th 1783
The White Plains Cabal disbands after a impassioned pleas from General Washington

January 30th 1783
Congress accepts the preliminary articles of the Treaty of Paris.

May 9th to 23rd 1783 [3]
The First Annapolis Convention is convened to deal with western land issues. All territory north of the Ohio is transferred to the national government except for the Western Reserve which is retained by Connecticut. Virginia and North Carolina retain their western land claims south of the Ohio.

July 4th 1783
The Treaty of Paris is signed

August 19th 1783
Veterans from the Pennsylvania Militia protest in Philadelphia forcing Congress to adjourn to Princeton, New Jersey.

September 1st 1783
Washington delivers his farewell address to his troops.

November 20th 1783
Nathaniel Greene is appointed Secretary of War by Congress after Congress votes to assume all his debts

March 16th to 24th 1784
Washington hosts the Potomac River Commission between Maryland and Virginia to settle issues over jurisdiction of the Potomac River.

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Northwest of Easton
Northampton County, Pennsylvania
April 12th, 1784


Sheriff Frederick Antis couldn't believe the sight down in the valley before him, hundreds of men, women, and children making their way out of the Lackawaxen wilderness with signs of starvation. Many are moving only by the aid of others. Surrounding them were over forty men, keeping them moving.

"Damn Patterson, damn him to hell!" muttered Frederick angrily. Turning to the hundred men of the Northamption militia he gathered. He spoke "Men! It doesn't matter if they are Yankees, Pennamites, or even damn Hessians. There are several hundred souls down there that need saving. We didn't fight King George to make our own tyrants!"

The men gave a cheer, at which the column below halted. Frederick yelled "Move forward!" and began to lead the formation of militia down the hill. When they reached the huddled group of people and the men guarding them. Frederick yelled "Company Halt!" and his men stopped.

Stepping forward he fished out a folded piece of paper and yelled. "Alexander Patterson! You present here?"

A small thin man, with a rifle walked up, "I am Chairman Patterson." Looking around at the militia. "You here to take charge of these prisoners?"

Frederick kept his face calm and unfolded the paper in his ha, "Mr. Patterson I am Frederick Antis, Sheriff of Northampton County. You and your men are hereby under arrest and are to lay down all your arms."

"What!" sputtered Patterson, "What is the meaning of this!" gripping his rifle tighter.


"Present Arms!" shouted Frederick. When the sound of a hundred men readying their guns died away he turned back to the Patterson. "What it means that your little tyrant's rule in the Wyoming is at an end and your so called prisoners are now under the protection of Northampton County and the State of Pennsylvania. You will disarm now or face the consequences."

Blinking for a few moments Patterson threw down his rifle, at that his men began to throw down their weapons as well.

Frederick the walked to the people huddled together, their gaunt faces and tired expression told of the ordeal they went through. Turning to them he spoke "You are safe now, I don't know how it came to this. But mark my word we will punish those any who are responsible for this. For now we will escort you to a warm place where you can get food and shelter."

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Taken from "Columbia Historical Dictonary". 1914 edition.
Columbia Group Printers, New York City
Used with permission.

DELAWARE MARCH
March 29th to April 12th 1784

Alexander Patterson, Chairman of the Pennsylvania Landholder Committee, ordered the Connecticut settlers of the Wyoming Valley rounded up after spring flood wiped many of their homes in early March. For two week over a thousand women, children, and old men were kept penned up at Fort Dickinson with minimal food and water.

Beginning on the 29th Patterson and his men began a 14 day march through the Lackawaxen wilderness to the Delaware down to Easton where he planned to have them imprisoned. During the march over half died of starvation and exposure. The remaining only survived due to food and supplied handed them to by friendly farmers in the Delaware and Neversink Valleys. The farmers sent word ahead to Sheriff Antis of Northampton County, who formed up the Northamption Militia and arrested Patterson and his men.

This incident and its aftermath is marked by historians as a key incident igniting the Great Awakening that shaped much of the early history of the United States.

[1] This an attempt at a first person perspective, where instead being invisible watching on the side, we are actually in the head of a participant seeing and hearing what he or she does. I think using this occasionally is a useful expansion on Kaiser's method of exploring a time-line.

[2] George Washington suffered a twisted ankle a week ago and was using a cane to get around.

[3] The Congress recognize that with loss of South Carolina and Georgia that something needs do be done now about the western lands the least of which is to get some land sales going to alleviate the debt problem.
 
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