No/Lesser Magyar Invasions

The Professor

The Professor

The latest flag challenge got me wondering about the effects of reduced Magyar invasions.

Their raids promped the resurrection of the Frankish Empire out of East Francia and Italy, establishing what would be called the Holy Roman Empire.

Would this still come about?
How would the Pannonian Plains evolve? Would they go wholly slavic? Could a Magyar Nation take root there albeit smaller? What about the remaining Avars, the Cumans, etc?
 

Magnum

The Professor said:
The latest flag challenge got me wondering about the effects of reduced Magyar invasions.

Their raids promped the resurrection of the Frankish Empire out of East Francia and Italy, establishing what would be called the Holy Roman Empire.

Would this still come about?
How would the Pannonian Plains evolve? Would they go wholly slavic? Could a Magyar Nation take root there albeit smaller? What about the remaining Avars, the Cumans, etc?
Click to expand...

Maybe you might even get some sort of remnant of a Romance population in Pannonia ?
 

Simreeve

There might have been a stronger Sarmatian remnant there, too: I've seen a list of languages spoken in Hungary at the time of the later Ottoman invasion that included one called 'Jassig', and that name looks suspiciously close to the name of the Sarmatian 'Iazyges' who'd been living there before Germanic tribes and then the Huns took over control...
 

Marko

I think the burgisation of central europe would be postponed by several decades if not centuries since many keeps, castles and burgs were built in response to the Magyar raids. This could also mean local nobility stays in the lowlands where the mayority of the population lived. What that means on future social developments I can't say.

A slow germanic migration might continue eastwards as OTL but it could also be stopped by various events.

If Bulgarians win over the Magyars rather than the other way round all what is today Romania would remian under their rule as well as all of Alfold. Bulgaria would remain a heavy-weight more than capable of toppling the ERE in the Europe beyond the walls of Constantinople. Especially since the PoD would happen during the rule of Simeon the Great.

If something butterflies a Magyar state in Pannonia an "Iron Curtain" ( :p ) will fall from the Baltic to the Adriatic separating the Germanic and Slavic worlds.

If I had to make a prediction the 10th century political structure east of such curtain would be (going from North to South): Obordite realm, Bohemia, Moravia, lower Pannonia, Croatia as lesser frontier formations followed by Pagania, Zahumlje, Travunja, Duklja along the Adriatic coast, super Bulgaria controling everyting else east to the Long wall and north to the Dniester, Poland and Pomerania following one another to the Baltic and Kievan Rus streatching into the east and north.
 

kalamona

Simreeve said:
There might have been a stronger Sarmatian remnant there, too: I've seen a list of languages spoken in Hungary at the time of the later Ottoman invasion that included one called 'Jassig', and that name looks suspiciously close to the name of the Sarmatian 'Iazyges' who'd been living there before Germanic tribes and then the Huns took over control...
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Nope, while they were/are indeed sarmatians, they came along with the cumans, fleeing from the mongols.
 
Petike

Petike

Marko said:
I think the burgisation of central europe would be postponed by several decades if not centuries since many keeps, castles and burgs were built in response to the Magyar raids. This could also mean local nobility stays in the lowlands where the mayority of the population lived. What that means on future social developments I can't say.
Click to expand...

:confused:

Erm, you do know that, for instance, Great Moravia, had a lot of hillforts and wooden castles even long prior to the coming of the archaic Magyar tribes, right ?

Why would it postpone the building of forts by centuries ? Do you think there would be no eventual wars between Slavic realms and the Franks and Byzantines and their allies ? Castles would be needed, you know. And if something like the OTL Mongol invasion occurs one day, you can bet your hide that central and east Europeans would eventually switch to stone castles and towns with stone walls (if they haven't done so already, though for probably different reasons).

And I can actually see some cultural mixing of Slavs and Franks, especially within their borderland regions. After all, there are several examples of such OTL precedents. I doubt the two civs would fiercely separate their cultures from each other on an indefinite basis. It didn't occur in OTL and it wouldn't have much of a chance in an ATL either. While there was rivalry due to the political ambitions of their rulers, the Slavs and the Franks weren't exactly two cultural civilizations that would oppose cultural and ethnic intermingling.
 
The Professor

The Professor

So essentially we have stronger Moravia and Bulgaria and Croatia; possible other small Magyar, Slav, and other kingdoms.

What about East Francia. Without the Magyar raids could the HRE be formed or would this fall to later dynasties of Burgundy or West Francia. Would East Francia fragment?
 

Marko

Petike said:
:confused:

Erm, you do know that, for instance, Great Moravia, had a lot of hillforts and wooden castles even long prior to the coming of the archaic Magyar tribes, right ?
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I know they were but such settlements in Greater Moravia apart from a few special places like Devin or Bratislava were a type of settlement that is called "Gradište" in Croatian medieval terminology in Slovak it would probably be "Hradište" which is different from a Burg.


Petike said:
Why would it postpone the building of forts by centuries ? Do you think there would be no eventual wars between Slavic realms and the Franks and Byzantines and their allies ? Castles would be needed, you know. And if something like the OTL Mongol invasion occurs one day, you can bet your hide that central and east Europeans would eventually switch to stone castles and towns with stone walls (if they haven't done so already, though for probably different reasons).
Click to expand...

When I wrote down centuries I wasn't thinking of a period longer than maybe 200 years. Sure there will be wars but mostly these are ocasional events that can be aniticipated especially if two realms with similar military structure face each other or there is internal disturbance within a single realm. Without the period of more than 50 years of Magyar raiding central Europe we would most likely continue to see the continuation of the roman villa rustica or low land mote and keep type of structure used by nobles for their residence alongside walled towns in the river vallies as had been the norm prior to the Magyar devastation.

Just as a clarification in my previous post when I wrote down central europe I had East Frankish kingdom in mind.


Petike said:
And I can actually see some cultural mixing of Slavs and Franks, especially within their borderland regions. After all, there are several examples of such OTL precedents. I doubt the two civs would fiercely separate their cultures from each other on an indefinite basis. It didn't occur in OTL and it wouldn't have much of a chance in an ATL either. While there was rivalry due to the political ambitions of their rulers, the Slavs and the Franks weren't exactly two cultural civilizations that would oppose cultural and ethnic intermingling.
Click to expand...

The Iron Curtain was joke thats why I placed :p


Cheers
 

Marko

The Professor said:
So essentially we have stronger Moravia and Bulgaria and Croatia; possible other small Magyar, Slav, and other kingdoms.

What about East Francia. Without the Magyar raids could the HRE be formed or would this fall to later dynasties of Burgundy or West Francia. Would East Francia fragment?
Click to expand...


Considering the trend that was happening in the successors of the Frankish empire I would say the fragmentation would continue without a serious threat from the outside. Sure it is not imposible for a capable noble/king to pull another Charlmagne but I am more inclined to believe that the royal authority in the three kingdoms would eventually become as irrelevant as the imperial had with local strongmen/magnates carving realms of their own. So for example by mid 11th century we might have Aquitane, Normandy, Burgundy, Swabia, Bavaria, Carinthia reemerged as the strongest of the lot of feudal domains in the territories of the former Empire wying for power and influence.
 

bolhabela

I am amused that people think that with less Magyar raids we would disapeare. I belive the oposite. With less war the tribes would have a bigger population and they would kill or assimilate the people on captured land. They cant go back East, West is becoming to united, the Balkans are to populus. So they will realise that they have to setle down and protect the land so a stable Magyar nation would emerge 100 maybe 150 years earlier.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
Another question: is there a way for the Magyars to become the dominant power in the Pontic steppes instead of the Pannonian Plains? Imagine the Magyars becoming the analogue to the Khazars.
 
The Professor

The Professor

bolhabela said:
I am amused that people think that with less Magyar raids we would disapeare. I belive the oposite. With less war the tribes would have a bigger population and they would kill or assimilate the people on captured land. They cant go back East, West is becoming to united, the Balkans are to populus. So they will realise that they have to setle down and protect the land so a stable Magyar nation would emerge 100 maybe 150 years earlier.
Click to expand...

It's more of a what if there were less Magyars in the first place hence less raids rather than less raids with same population.
 
Petike

Petike

Marko said:
I know they were but such settlements in Greater Moravia apart from a few special places like Devin or Bratislava were a type of settlement that is called "Gradište" in Croatian medieval terminology in Slovak it would probably be "Hradište" which is different from a Burg.
Click to expand...

Gradište or hradisko is a hillfort, a fortified town.

Marko said:
When I wrote down centuries I wasn't thinking of a period longer than maybe 200 years.
Click to expand...

Oh, OK then. :) I wasn't sure how many centuries you were referring to. Usually when people say "centuries", they usually mean at least 400-500 years, if not more. A bit of a conversation cliché, I know, but it's a common phenomennon. :eek: :)
 
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Marko

Petike said:
Gradište or hradisko is a hillfort, a fortified town.
Click to expand...

This probably is where general language meets archaeological definitions. I am translating this into English so might not be the best possible explanation as it is given in Croatia.

Gradište is a settlement type of a semi-urban type. Usually made out of one or more (more commonly several) closely placed inhabited locations of which some may be fortified, usually at least one. In short a conglomeration of Selišta which may or may not be fortifed around a central fortifed location usually signifing a seat of a local chieftain/lord and location of a local parish church following christianisation.

I hate definitions :D
 

birdboy2000

Banned
MarshalBraginsky said:
Another question: is there a way for the Magyars to become the dominant power in the Pontic steppes instead of the Pannonian Plains? Imagine the Magyars becoming the analogue to the Khazars.
Click to expand...

If that happened it would likely butterfly the Magyar conquest/settlement of Pannonia, which was in part the result of Pecheneg and Bulgarian pressure driving them from their homeland.
 

katchen

Banned
Could the Magyars (or the Bulgars for that matter) have kept right on going, into France or Spain and stayed there, possibly displacing the Capets or the Kingdom of Leon?
 
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