(Sort of) a TLIAW: 1485 - Stanley's Dilemma

1485 - Stanley's Dilemma: A TLIAW

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A TLIAW? Whats that?
A Timeline in a week. Like a TLIAD, but taking into account my ability to procrastinate, hence the seven day time-frame.

TLIAD?
Timeline in a day. The PolitiBrits had a rash of them all over the Post 1900 forum last week and the one before.

Wrong Forum then.
As the title suggests, this is set Pre 1900.

Still wrong forum.
This isn't really a TL as such. There's no discernible PoD, and I'm not going to be going very far at all, so I think it might be more suited here...

Right. It isn't a TL, has no real PoD, and won't be finished in 24 hours. What on earth are you doing it for?
The idea came to me last week, and I thought the TLIAD format would be a good one to force me to commit to the idea.

Commit? You've been a member here for how long?
Too long to still be fretting about writing something.

Oh, I get. You're not sure if you like the way you write. The "over abundance of commas" thing.
Amongst others, yes.

So you're subjecting the good folk of AH to this, so that you aren't too scared when you come up with something better?
Maybe. Bit blunt, but maybe.

And you thought this was a good idea to practice your writing style? The idea somewhat limits your chances of writing scintillating dialogue...
As I said, the idea came to me, so I'll publish and be damned.

Despite the fact it's not really a TLIAD in any sense, you've still done this talking heads beginning? Jumping on the bandwagon much?
It seemed like a good idea at the time. Although I'm not so sure now...

Anyway, who the hell are you? I've never even heard of you.
Look, I'm probably more famous for drinking copious amounts of tea (even by British standards) on here than anything else, but I'm trying to write, so cut me some slack, okay?

Why should I?
Sod it, beginning like this wasn't a good idea. You can naff off, and I'll write the blasted story without you.
 
1485: Stanley's Dilemma

22nd August 1485

Stanley stood on the hilltop, looking at the scene unfolding to the North. Richard was on a hill much like his own, with his troops deploying at the top. Tudor had broken camp later, resulting in his men were spreading out in the area at the foot of the slope. One way or another, it would be decided today, or so it seemed. This particular round of blood-letting would finish before the sun set. It had to. Even if both men survived, one would surely be discredited.

His brother William, always something of a dreamer, had decried the finality of it all. Wouldn't a bloody stalemate suit them better? A day in which both Tudor and Richard failed to break the enemy, leading to another night of messengers in the dark, carrying ever more desperate messages persuading the uncommitted forces of the Stanley brothers to join their cause on day two.

Realism was never William's strong point. As it stood already, neither Henry nor Richard trusted them. A day sitting on the sidelines would not do anything to endear them further to the victor. Richard could not wait another day. He'd lost too many supporters already. Henry couldn't refuse battle, and the Stanleys couldn't afford not to be on the winning side. Today it would have to be.

Stanley turned back towards his own men. They were in high spirits, and had every right to be so. They all knew their Lord was thrifty with the lives of his men. He would not commit them to a lost cause. More than that, he had never committed them to a cause that he didn't believe would be victorious. They would be on the winning side, would enter at the most opportune moment and would, for the most part, survive. His reputation was a fine one, but it was not without problems. It took a lot of diplomatic, political and military nous to build such a name, and one misstep would destroy it in an instant. For all his reputation when alive, Warwick was no longer seen as a maker of kings. To some, he was a traitor. To others, a grasping fool. It would only take one rash decision, and Stanley would join the name Warwick in the annals of folly. All being well, the decision being made today would not be that fatal one.

It had not been easy to arrive at a solution. The great gambler of the age had pondered long and hard before making his mind up. In fact, his decision will be discussed, decried and even dramatised for centuries to come. Some will declare that there was no decision to make, that his choice was the only possible outcome. The most famous interpretation, written a century later, will see Stanley spend the night before the battle without sleep. The playwright reveals all of Stanley's tribulations in one of the most famous soliloquy's ever written, indeed he only ceases to wrestle with the problem as the rising sun creeping into his tent. There are still some - admittedly of a more romantic mindset - who claim that Stanley broke his fast undecided. In their mind's eye, the picture the conflicted noble sitting astride his horse, watching the fray develop while unsure of his loyalties. They claim that he literally made the decision, screamed his loyalty to the heavens, and charged down the hillside, his men following. Quite how such people assume that such a fantastical chain of events can allow five thousand men to all attack the correct foe, let alone do so in a coordinated strike, is never addressed...

However and whenever Stanley decided, the fact remained that neither of the protagonists in the grand drama trusted him. The demeanour of their messengers, and their messages, suggested that both men suspected his loyalties...



To be continued.

 
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and what did he do?
All in good time, Altwere. Thanks for reading! :)

I like the writing, and the buildup. Subscribed.
Thanks! Don't know where the idea came from, but the vast majority of this is just going to be in Stanley's head, either imagining or remembering. Not the greatest exercise of the writing muscles, but an itch I felt needed to be scratched.
 
Cool idea, but why is it in the Writer's Forum rather than Pre-1900?
As I said in the shamelessly co-opted internal conversation, there's no real PoD, or there might be three or four smaller ones. In some senses this could be all traced back to a 'somebody has something different for breakfast, hence a message is delayed' sort of PoD, but my second reason then comes into play. This whole "TL" is essentially the battle and its very immediate aftermath. Even for the TLIAD format, it's very short in its own TL. I didn't really think it'd fit comfortably in Pre-1900.

I'm happy to be corrected on this point, and ask a mod to move it if others think the same as you...
 
The Night Before the Morning After (Part I)

21st August 1485

The first messenger to arrive in the Stanley camp was from Tudor. This despite the fact that the man himself had met the brothers earlier in the day. Yes, they had made no promises, but what did he expect? One doesn't gain a reputation as the finest political gambler in the kingdom by throwing his cards onto the table. The emissary had obviously expected an answer. Sir John Savage, a Stanley man if ever there was, had marched his own forces into Henry's camp earlier in the evening. Surely, it was time to follow his example? Stanley had used this ridiculous statement to his full advantage. Did this imbecile not think that his betters had discussed such things? Tudor knew full well that Lord Strange was a hostage in Richard's camp. Stanley had to be careful about when he made his move. After this stinging rebuke, the fool had never managed to gain the initiative. Lord Thomas had given one evasive answer after another, and could sense the mounting exasperation in Tudor's man. Eventually, the man had been unable to contain himself.

"My master simply wishes to know if you will come."

Very undiplomatic. Rather rude, in fact. Stanley had watched the man attempt to stammer out an explanation, and cut him short,

"Naturally, I shall come."

Credit to the messenger, he may have raised his eyebrows, but he looked shamefaced when he realised, and quickly bit his tongue. That was the end of the meeting, and both parties seemed glad of the fact.

 
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The Night Before the Morning After (Part II)

21st August 1485

Stanley had just started to relax when Gloucester's man appeared in camp. No. Not Gloucester any more. Mustn't call him that. Mustn't even think it too often. Could be the last mistake a man ever makes. King Richard's man requested an audience. He had more tact than the previous fellow, it was true. Then again, Richard could have sent his horse, and the same would be true. While the man was more soft spoken, his message left little to the imagination.

"His Majesty will do his utmost to guarantee the safety of your son, Lord Strange."

Oh, indeed. Stanley had every faith in this. As much as he fervently believed that he was next in line for a Cardinal's hat.

"But..."

Here it comes, he thought,

"...if you cannot commit quickly to the fray, and the King's party is hard-pressed, Lord Strange may not be foremost in his Majesty's mind..."

Stanley was not wet behind the ears. However tactfully delivered, a death threat was still a death threat. For the second time in the evening, Stanley had stumped a man with his response.

"I appreciate the concern shown in my son by His Majesty, but if the worst were to happen, I am blessed with other sons."

He did wonder whether he had gone too far with that remark. Such a callous disregard for his own flesh could be seen to be a signal of his intentions. It could be enough to have his sun executed before sunrise. If nothing else, it had certainly flummoxed the messenger.

It was after the second herald had departed that Stanley sent one of his own. Sir William responded
to his brother by arriving in person, and they had stayed in conference for many an hour...
 

perfectgeneral

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I love the ambiguity of 'I shall come' (as an enemy or a friend?). 'How can I act, but to protect my son?' might have been equally ambiguous for the other side.

Moar!
 
I love the ambiguity of 'I shall come' (as an enemy or a friend?). 'How can I act, but to protect my son?' might have been equally ambiguous for the other side.

Moar!
According to the sources I've been using, the "Naturally, I shall come" line was OTL.

Thanks for the support.

EDIT: As is the sentiment of the "I have other sons." line, hence why I kept it.
 
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Day of Days - Part I

22nd August 1485

Stanley attempted to clear his mind of thoughts of last night.
The past was a foreign land. He could no more change events there than he could in Persia. This day was the important one. This day would decide the fate of all the men on the field, and most likely the country too.

As he watched, the forces on the hill started to move. One of the banners - Norfolk's, judging by the emblems - was starting towards Tudor's men. Norfolk was a good commander, likely better than the untried Tudor. Yesterday had destroyed any thoughts of Tudor's test coming today though. Tudor had let Stanley know that Oxford was commanding 'his' men. Stanley had wondered at that. He was claiming the crown, but wasn't leading his troops. Then again, he was trying to convince Stanley to back him. Backing Oxford was a gamble with much shorter odds than backing a man who had never commanded. Much closer to a Stanley gamble.

Norfolk's men had reached Oxford's lines. The real waiting game began now. Move too soon, and the battle would still be hard. He'd lose too many men. In fact, if he intervened before the time was right, the leader he'd chosen to support could still fall. That would be too terrible to even consider. The problem was, if he waited, he could miss his chance. To show his hand too late would be just as disastrous. He needed to back the winning horse, but it had to be before everybody realised the race was already run. Too late, and he'd look less than supportive, possibly disloyal. Even more damaging would be to stand idle. That would be seen as proof that he was supporting the other party. As he'd said to his brother last night - or was it this morning? To do nothing would be to cause more damage to our prospects than anything short of trying to attack both.

Sir William had rightly said that he was exaggerating, but he had good reason. William had to appreciate the importance of the timing. In fact, both Tudor and Richard could be drawing conclusion - incorrect or otherwise - from this confounded new position William had decided to take up. He was playing with fire. Not to mention his nephew's life.
 
Moved where ?

i really like that timeline !
Thanks for the support Manuel. :)

Not to worry, it still exists, it's just in Pre-1900 now. Got a busy day today, but will definitely attempt to get at least two updates out by the end of tomorrow.
 
Apologies to all (3 or so) of the people reading this TL. Not had the time to churn out the next few updates due to real life, job applications and problems with student loans...

Somewhat negates the point of a TLIAW, but I shall do my utmost to finish the thing this coming weekend.
 
Move too soon, and the battle would still be hard. He'd lose too many men. In fact, if he intervened before the time was right, the leader he'd chosen to support could still fall. That would be too terrible to even consider. The problem was, if he waited, he could miss his chance.

Does it really matter if his chosen leader falls - just as long as he reaches the spot in time to kill the other one as well?

I've sometimes wondered whether that was Stanley's real intention, but that his timing was just that bit out. I gather there's some evidence that Henry VII suspected the same.
 
Does it really matter if his chosen leader falls - just as long as he reaches the spot in time to kill the other one as well?

I've sometimes wondered whether that was Stanley's real intention, but that his timing was just that bit out. I gather there's some evidence that Henry VII suspected the same.

I can't say that I'd trust Stanley to do anything, even if I was Henry VII and he'd seemingly decided to support me. I think I've heard that after Bosworth Henry put Stanley troops in the front line whenever possible so Stanley couldn't just sit on the sidelines. Is that right? It sounds like a reasonable precaution if it is.

I will be interested to see what choices Stanley makes ITTL. One thing's for sure; however he decides it will be because he thinks it's best for him.
 
Does it really matter if his chosen leader falls - just as long as he reaches the spot in time to kill the other one as well?

I can't say that I'd trust Stanley to do anything, even if I was Henry VII and he'd seemingly decided to support me. I think I've heard that after Bosworth Henry put Stanley troops in the front line whenever possible so Stanley couldn't just sit on the sidelines. Is that right? It sounds like a reasonable precaution if it is.

My reading of the situation is that neither trusted Stanley an inch, but both felt they needed him. Whichever way he goes, Stanley will not be trusted. If the winner survives, he'll know Stanley left it very late, probably so he could see which way the wind was blowing. If the leader of the "winning" army dies, his heir/successor will trust Stanley even less.

The thing is, he knows that neither Richard nor Henry trust him, and feels he needs to move carefully so he doesn't heighten that mistrust any more. At the same time, he must preserve as many of his men as possible. Let's face it: if you're king, and a courtier you don't trust has lost enough of his retainers to be seriously weakened, then now might be the time to strike.

Stanley appreciates he has a difficult tightrope to walk, and is trying to hold his brother up too.

I will be interested to see what choices Stanley makes ITTL. One thing's for sure; however he decides it will be because he thinks it's best for him.
This is my reading of the man. Stanley is looking out for Lord Stanley. Sir William Stanley, Lord Strange and the rest of the clan may register somewhere on the radar, but they're tiny blips compared to the massive Stanley shaped contact blotting out the screen...
 
Day of Days - Part II

22nd August 1485

The morning was dragging on, and Norfolk's men were struggling. At first, the advance had went well, and Oxford had been pushed from the slope. However, the momentum had left Norfolk. Oxford had used all his skill and experience to keep his men together, and they were standing firm. In fact, unless Stanley was mistaken, Norfolk's banner appeared to be edging back. The movement was ever so slight, it was barely perceptible. Nevertheless, it was there.

Stanley dragged his gaze up the hill to where Richard and Percy had their own banners. He had half expected to see Percy move already, even as soon as Norfolk appeared to be struggling. Oxford, obviously thought so too. The small reserve, which he had been reliably informed would be "under Tudor's own command", was moving slightly further back from the main force. Whoever the commander was supposed to be, Oxford was calling the shots. Whether they were making sure they well out of the way, or if they were seeking a position to counter Percy's thrust, he didn't know.

Time went on, and Richard still seemed content to wait. Whatever Stanley and Oxford expected, Percy had not moved. Stanley scoffed at the thought that Richard was waiting for him to move. The time wasn't right for that yet, and Norfolk wouldn't hold his men long enough for that to happen. Percy would have to be sent into the fray shortly. Stanley thought that he should already have been sent down the slope. Oxford definitely had the upper hand now. It was evident even from this distance. God's teeth! What was Richard playing at?

Stanley forced the concern out of his facial features. It wouldn't do to look worried. His troops were not the followers of a man who was unsure, a man that fretted. They knew they leader to be decisive, composed, and above all, a winner. The ruse was getting harder and harder to keep up. What on Earth was going on? At this rate, Richard would be defeated, with two of his three banners not even bothering to engage. Still none of the forces on the hill moved. Confound Richard, confound Percy, confound them all! They sat motionless, while Norfolk and his men bled at the foot of the hill.

Then, Stanley saw something that made his blood run cold. Norfolk's banner wavered. But it did not fall, it still flew, after a moment's doubt. Stanley breathed a sigh of relief. Whether Norfolk still stood under it, he did not know. Riders could be seen going from Richard to Percy, but there was no more activity. For all his lecturing to his brother on the importance of timing, Stanley was at a loss. He had no idea what was going on on that hill. How would he know when to move? Maybe he had already missed his chance?
 
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