Could Germany today offer space flight for tourists?

Obelixx

Between 1957 and 1964 the "Hermann-Oberth-Society", Ernst Mohr, Bertold Seliger and other amateur and semiprofessional rocket scientists launched many kinds of rockets in the Cuxhaven area for scientific purpose. The largest of these rockets were the rockets of Berthold Seliger, an owner of a moped shop, which reached heights more than 100 kilometres. However after a fatal accident at a rocket show in Braunlage conducted by Gerhard Zucker, all these experiments were banned, although Gerhard Zucker did not work together with the men conducting rocket experiments in Cuxhaven area between 1957 and 1964 ( interestingly he launched there a post rocket, which failed) and he had a bad reputation at those experimentators.
The real reason for the ban of the rocket launches in Cuxhaven area might have been the demonstration of military useable rockets to non-NATO military staff in December 1963.

More information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_experiments_in_the_area_of_Cuxhaven
http://www.astronautix.com/sites/cuxhaven.htm

But what would have happened as rocket launches in Cuxhaven area would not have banned in 1964?

My asumption:
- around 1970: first satellite launch
- around 1990: first manned launch, with idea of space tourism?

I also believe that the rocket science conducted there would have had also great influence of German society. I believe the rocket scientists would have offered a clever alternative for the 68-generation.
 
Michel Van

Michel Van

the major problem was that private people here firing bigger rockets as fireworks.
Something Not be allowed in over regulated bureaucratic Germany.

another reason was the Endangerment of main navigation routes to Hansestadt Hamburg, the biggest harbor of Germany.
Cuxhaven lies direct at mouth of the river Elbe, who lead to Hamburg.
and the Trawlers who are fishing in area, were most of those private rocket hit into the see.
 

Vonar Roberts

Well I am pretty sure Germany was forbidden or restricted from developing rockets as a part of the WW2 peace treaty, and even if they weren't the U.S and Soviet Union quickly took all the really important rocket scientists and rocket technology of note so the German's would half to start developing rockets from scratch which would have its own host of problems.

I suspect that the Soviet Union would have also strongly objected to a West Germany that started to build rockets that could serve a dual-use purpose, and the Soviets would not have liked German rocket's flying east over Soviet territory for obvious reasons.

Also given Germany's location (relative to the equator) German rocket's would have suffered high delta-v penalties while launching satellites and other payloads due to the large plane change maneuver, which is required to acquire for a stable equatorial orbit.
 

Warringer

I'd like to point at OTRAG, a german company that did develop a somewhat usable rocket system during the 1970s. They were hindered by the german government, who pushed for the Europa at the time, and the French, who didn't want independent German space launch capacities.
 
Michel Van

Michel Van

Vonar Roberts said:
Well I am pretty sure Germany was forbidden or restricted from developing rockets as a part of the WW2 peace treaty, and even if they weren't the U.S and Soviet Union quickly took all the really important rocket scientists and rocket technology of note so the German's would half to start developing rockets from scratch which would have its own host of problems.
Click to expand...

not quite, it restriction exclude sicentific rockets

Vonar Roberts said:
Also given Germany's location (relative to the equator) German rocket's would have suffered high delta-v penalties while launching satellites and other payloads due to the large plane change maneuver, which is required to acquire for a stable equatorial orbit.
Click to expand...

only launch toward north west, for into Sun-synchronous orbit,
You need powerful rockets to get payload into that orbit (Titan IIID)

Warringer said:
I'd like to point at OTRAG, a german company that did develop a somewhat usable rocket system during the 1970s. They were hindered by the german government, who pushed for the Europa at the time, and the French, who didn't want independent German space launch capacities.
Click to expand...

OTRAG is a bizarre case
It's founder Lutz Kayser claims it was International conspiracy, who kill the project.
the reality was the Lutz Kayer try to "sell the bearskin before shooting the Bear"
already in 1975 ORTAG made deal with Nation of Zaire for equator launch site in the province of Shaba (and rights to be the police force and on raw material exploitation)
the deal: Dictator Mobutu wanted 5% on OTRAG clear profit and gratis reconnaissance satellite !
but for the neighbouring countries of Zaire, were operation of ORTAG most suspect.
like the Zaire reconnaissance satellite, also they suspect that ORTAG rocket could be used as military weapon against them.
what is complete nonsense the rocket was unable for military used, actually also unable to launch a satellite into orbit
the Pro soviet Angola protests in U.N. against this threat of "German ICBM" in pro USA Zaire
Dictator Mobutu denounce the OTRAG contract in 1979, here Lutz Kayer claimed that was a conspiracy by German, French and USSR government.
in fact Mobutu had enough, since 4 years OTRAG rigs this rocket with no success and he got instead 5% profit, very serious diplomatic problems.
Kayser is expelled from Zaire and move his business to LIBYA !
in 1982 OTRAG business was confiscated by Libyan military, they try to modified the hardware into medium range missile
but after 1984 the OTRAG concept was quite ...death
 

freivolk

Michel Van said:
not quite, it restriction exclude sicentific rockets



only launch toward north west, for into Sun-synchronous orbit,
You need powerful rockets to get payload into that orbit (Titan IIID)



OTRAG is a bizarre case
It's founder Lutz Kayser claims it was International conspiracy, who kill the project.
the reality was the Lutz Kayer try to "sell the bearskin before shooting the Bear"
already in 1975 ORTAG made deal with Nation of Zaire for equator launch site in the province of Shaba (and rights to be the police force and on raw material exploitation)
the deal: Dictator Mobutu wanted 5% on OTRAG clear profit and gratis reconnaissance satellite !
but for the neighbouring countries of Zaire, were operation of ORTAG most suspect.
like the Zaire reconnaissance satellite, also they suspect that ORTAG rocket could be used as military weapon against them.
what is complete nonsense the rocket was unable for military used, actually also unable to launch a satellite into orbit
the Pro soviet Angola protests in U.N. against this threat of "German ICBM" in pro USA Zaire
Dictator Mobutu denounce the OTRAG contract in 1979, here Lutz Kayer claimed that was a conspiracy by German, French and USSR government.
in fact Mobutu had enough, since 4 years OTRAG rigs this rocket with no success and he got instead 5% profit, very serious diplomatic problems.
Kayser is expelled from Zaire and move his business to LIBYA !
in 1982 OTRAG business was confiscated by Libyan military, they try to modified the hardware into medium range missile
but after 1984 the OTRAG concept was quite ...death
Click to expand...

The OTRAG storyi vey interessting. Wonder what would happend with a POD, where Helmut Kohl wins the 1976 federal election and as foreign minister Franz Joef Strauß throws his ful support behind the project.
 
Michel Van

Michel Van

freivolk said:
The OTRAG storyi vey interessting. Wonder what would happend with a POD, where Helmut Kohl wins the 1976 federal election and as foreign minister Franz Joef Strauß throws his ful support behind the project.
Click to expand...

Same like Helmut Schmitt, who on his 1979 good will tour in Africa, got hell of complains by the local Government about OTRAG
In a Intervew in the newmagazine "Der Spiegel" Schmitt say about Lutz Kayer "Ich könnte dem Kerl den Hals umdrehen" : I could turn the chap his neck.
the German government had commissioning a Report by spaceflight expert Harry O. Ruppe about OTRAG rocket,
the Report show the rocket is feasibility unable to launch a satellite into orbit, after that they abandon all support on ORTAG
under Franz Joseph Strauß that would also happen, only that He would use allot of bavarian swear words and strong language (his most notorious trademark)


Warringer said:
Strauss? Keep that asshole in Bavaria.
Click to expand...

yes Franz Joseph Strauß was very polemic politician, in bavaria consider a saint, elsewhere consider as corrupt hungry power seeker.
but he made hell of job turning agriculture Bavaria into High tech nation with Aerospace, Car and nuclear industry.
without him the post war German Aerospace and Airbus had never existed

would he still alive, he would turn Cuxhaven in spaceport for Suborbital flights

i forgot to post that US company XCOR made query on operating license in German federal state Lower Saxony and Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania
for Suborbital spaceplane Lynx
the first on the list is Cuxhaven

i look on map and discover that polar Orbital launch from Cuxhaven has serous problems for Denmark and Norway.
the rocket past atlong coast of Denmark were first stage & booster crash, second stage past Norway and crash somewhere in north Norway.
 

Archibald

Banned
Main issue with Kayzer that he wanted to launch his rocket from Mobutu Zaire, and Mobutu was not easy to deal with. Later Kayser relocated his launch base to Lybia, and Ghaddafi was no better than Mobutu.
In a nutshell, Kayser was fortunate enough not to end like Gerard Bull, i.e shot down by Mossad before he could sold his space launch technology to a nut dictator...
 

Dahveed323

too many reasons why not

(a) over beaurucratic, to open up space tourism you need much more wild-west type capitalism. There is a reason space tourism is happening in the US, AND the space port is in NEw Mexico.
(b) name one country in the northern hemispher that would not FREAK OUT if the germans started advanced work in rocketry.

... these are the biggest ones.
 
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Michel Van

Michel Van

Dahveed323 said:
(b) name one country in the northern hemispher that would not FREAK OUT if the germans started advanced work in rocketry.
Click to expand...

That remind me on British and there Black Arrow rocket program
They look for launch site on british coast near Norfolk !
until some one realize were the first stage would crash into...

...the british oil rig sites.
 
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