Llama Survives in Mexico Post-Pleistocene

Huehuecoyotl · May 23, 2013

As with all other camelids, llamas are descended from North American ancestors, and crossed over into South America around 3 million years before the present. At the end of the last Ice Age, however, the llama went entirely extinct in North America. There's evidence that it was present in Mexico until at least 8000 BCE, as the sacrum of a llama, carved into the likeness of a coyote by human hands, has been uncovered at Tequixquiac in the Valley of Mexico.

Llamas are fairly hardy animals, and the region between the Sierra Madre ranges is in some areas not entirely dissimilar from the South American highlands. So let's give the llamas the benefit of the doubt and say that in an ATL, a breeding population could survive in the Mexican highlands.

If not driven to extinction, would these llamas eventually become domesticated? If so, what effect would this have on Mesoamerican civilization?

DG Valdron · May 23, 2013

It's difficult to say for sure. But I would say that there's a reasonable chance. Pretty much every surviving camelid has been domesticated in OTL.

Huehuecoyotl · May 23, 2013

What factors influence llama breeding, any way? I wonder if they could breed in more density in Mexico than they did in the Andes.

twovultures · May 23, 2013

Depending on how well they can stand hot desert weather (probably pretty well, given where they have evolved in this scenario) domesticated llamas could cross the deserts from Mexico to Arizona. Llama trains could allow increased trade between the *Pueblo and the Mesoamerican people. Looking at the distribution of macrocephala at the paleobiology database, they had a very wide range so I could see llama pastoralists crossing the Great Plains to the east, bringing them useful livestock.

I don't see them being useful south of the Mexican highlands, as the moist post-ice age climate would probably prove fatal to them. Perhaps with a little luck, they could make the jump to the Guatamalan highlands, and would probably provide a boost to the more marginal agriculture there.

twovultures · May 23, 2013

Gruekiller said:
What factors influence llama breeding, any way? I wonder if they could breed in more density in Mexico than they did in the Andes.

Well, the North American species was different from the Andean species, so I'm not sure how much the breeding from one applies to the other. It could reasonably be seen as author discretion.

In fact, a POD could very well be that macrocephala becomes a more rapidly-breeding animal and manages to survive the pleistocene extinction that way.

Huehuecoyotl · May 23, 2013

Now there's a thought. I know there's already 'America domesticates' TLs around, but I may just have to have a go at this. It won't be for a good while, though, since I have an ongoing TL and various other writing projects I'm doing.

Zirantun · May 23, 2013

Really, the "llamas" i n Mexico belonged to two different genera. We can speculate a little bit about their breeding habits and their behavior, but sometimes different genera behave very differently. I'm sure there were similarities, but I'm sure that there were also a number differences as well. These genera of course also had their own separate species, and subspecies, which further breaks up the behavioral patterns.

Huehuecoyotl · May 23, 2013

Zirantun said:
Really, the "llamas" in Mexico belonged to two different genera. We can speculate a little bit about their breeding habits and their behavior, but sometimes different genera behave very differently. I'm sure there were similarities, but I'm sure that there were also a number differences as well. These genera of course also had their own separate species, and subspecies, which further breaks up the behavioral patterns.

I suppose that, for the sake of my own sanity, I would just stick with how OTL's Lama glama behaves, for the most part. It would be interesting to speculate on how the different genera would behave, but I don't think I quite have the capacity to wrap my mind around a project like that.

twovultures · May 23, 2013

Gruekiller said:
I suppose that, for the sake of my own sanity, I would just stick with how OTL's Lama glama behaves, for the most part. It would be interesting to speculate on how the different genera would behave, but I don't think I quite have the capacity to wrap my mind around a project like that.

That attitude will probably last until you get into some behavior that keeps the llama as a domesticate from doing something that you want it to do, and then I think you'll find that being creative isn't that hard

I say the more the merrier for American domesticate timelines, don't feel like you can't do it just because others are.

Malta · May 23, 2013

Well? Get to it then.

Huehuecoyotl · May 23, 2013

twovultures said:
That attitude will probably last until you get into some behavior that keeps the llama as a domesticate from doing something that you want it to do, and then I think you'll find that being creative isn't that hard

I say the more the merrier for American domesticate timelines, don't feel like you can't do it just because others are.

Hah, that's probably true. I'll keep the modern llama as a guideline, at least.

Certainly! I think my TL would have a slightly different scope than, say, Pecari Rex, Equus Regina, for example. PRER's POD causes much more major and far-reaching effects, thanks to the horse largely, and the civilizations of the Americas are drastically different as a result. I feel like Mesoamerican society in my TL would still be recognizable in most of its general trends, although the political history would be very different.

Malta Shah said:
Well? Get to it then.

I feel like I shouldn't take on a new project at the moment. I want to at least finish up one or two of the AARs I write on other forums first.

twovultures · May 23, 2013

Gruekiller said:
Certainly! I think my TL would have a slightly different scope than, say, Pecari Rex, Equus Regina, for example. PRER's POD causes much more major and far-reaching effects, thanks to the horse largely, and the civilizations of the Americas are drastically different as a result.

Yeah, i wouldn't say that I bit off more than I could chew, but I definitely bit the maximum that I could chew with the scope of that timeline. A smaller scope might be better, particularly if you like to do multiple TL's at once.

Huehuecoyotl · May 23, 2013

Do you guys suppose it's possible for an endemic disease to cross from llamas to humans? I know no such diseases arose in the Andes IOTL (I think), but maybe if llamas are bred in more density in Mexico? Or maybe the somewhat different lifestyle/genetics of Hemiauchenia (the North American llama) would allow for such a thing?

Tocomocho · May 25, 2013

Gruekiller said:
I suppose that, for the sake of my own sanity, I would just stick with how OTL's Lama glama behaves, for the most part. It would be interesting to speculate on how the different genera would behave, but I don't think I quite have the capacity to wrap my mind around a project like that.

*Lama guanicoe. Lama glama is the domestic form of that one. Check out also if there are differences with Vicugna (domestic form Alpaca), of which I don't know, which is a different genus of Andean camelid that has also been domesticated.

Overall I would bet NA llamas would be domesticated. Of 2 living genera of South American camelids and 1 Eurasian, all 3 have been domesticated IOTL. What are the odds?

Alright, now what we could extrapolate to NA:

SA camelids do live at sea level in Patagonia and appear on coastal Peruvian cultures like the Moche. So it seems that their absence from the coast in modern Peru is an artifact of European colonization and the replacement of native camelids there with Old World animals. Therefore, NA camelids could be expected to live both on high and low ground.

On the other hand...

SA camelids live in dry grasslands and are absent from the humid, lush forests that expanded after the end of the ice age. They'd probably not survive in Central America and the Mexican coasts. Could this realistically been breed out of them over time? If not, they would be limited to the central Mexican plateau.

Or what about this though? Llamas are not domesticated in Mexico, but they are in New Mexico, where they boost the local population, and over time cause periodic migrations/invasions of "pastoralist" peoples from the SW USA to the urban cultures in Mesoamerica.

Huehuecoyotl · May 25, 2013

Tocomocho said:
On the other hand...

SA camelids live in dry grasslands and are absent from the humid, lush forests that expanded after the end of the ice age. They'd probably not survive in Central America and the Mexican coasts. Could this realistically been breed out of them over time? If not, they would be limited to the central Mexican plateau.

Or what about this though? Llamas are not domesticated in Mexico, but they are in New Mexico, where they boost the local population, and over time cause periodic migrations/invasions of "pastoralist" peoples from the SW USA to the urban cultures in Mesoamerica.

I hadn't expected them to survive in humid forests. I think those are what prevented South American camelids from making it to Mexico IOTL. They certainly won't last in the Yucatan, but it looks like there's a lot of areas along the Pacific coast of Mexico proper where they might be able to survive. The llama would definitely spread north to the other peoples of North America, but I don't think it's likely for the animal to be passed over for domestication by the Mesoamericans.

Tobit · May 25, 2013

The Anasazi civilization collapsed in OTL could the Llama help them out in this TL? It seems to me that the Llama would probably not add to any kind of horse power for cranks but perhaps the cloth and pack animals would extend their trade routes?

There would probably be higher likelyhood of a written language, which would be interesting.

Huehuecoyotl · May 25, 2013

Tobit said:
The Anasazi civilization collapsed in OTL could the Llama help them out in this TL? It seems to me that the Llama would probably not add to any kind of horse power for cranks but perhaps the cloth and pack animals would extend their trade routes?

There would probably be higher likelyhood of a written language, which would be interesting.

I think the spread of the llama to the Southwest may predate the Anasazi ITTL, but there will definitely be some impressive kingdoms in the American Southwest.

The North American llama was a bit bigger than the South American variety, I believe, so they may be of more use as a source of 'llamapower' than their OTL equivalents. They'll certainly make good pack animals, as has been mused earlier in the thread, so communication across the continent might come a little more easily.

Tobit · May 25, 2013

One thing about Mexico is that it is full of microclimates. Besides the Central Mexican plateau there are places as far south as Oaxaca that are dry and high thanks to the rain shield that the Sierra Madre provides. There are places that are deciduous rainforest on one side of the mountain, and dry pine forests on the other side. Llamas could probably proliferate to many regions of Mexico.

jycee · May 25, 2013

Tobit said:
One thing about Mexico is that it is full of microclimates. Besides the Central Mexican plateau there are places as far south as Oaxaca that are dry and high thanks to the rain shield that the Sierra Madre provides. There are places that are deciduous rainforest on one side of the mountain, and dry pine forests on the other side. Llamas could probably proliferate to many regions of Mexico.

Very true, most people don't realize that it can even snow in the Sierra Madre del Sur as far south as Oaxaca: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_Madre_del_Sur

Also, I reckon we could see two genera of Llama surviving, like we do in South America. One that could be exclusively dry "highland" like vicugna (includes vicuñas and alpacas), which would be mostly limited to the Mexican Altiplano and the Southern Rockies. And a more adaptable genus (like llama), which could spread across most of Mexico north of the Eje Volcanico all the way to the American South West.

It would certainly still be difficult for either genus to survive South of the Sierra Madres, into Central America and the Southern Mexican coasts. And the micro climates of the regions will still place certain obstacles in the adoption of the new domesticate outside their native range. Though it will certainly happen at some point.

This is cool, you could still get a recognizable north america but give the local cultures a boost. And yet at the same time make it possible to keep everything north of this llama's range mostly unchanged (with certain butterfly nets, of course). And since we know the Incas never travelled North, there is no reason for the Nahua llama breeders to travel South. So once again you can keep South America relatively recognizable.

But one thing you can change is to have the "prairie" Llama make it to California. Trading cultures across the South West would certainly reach Cali, and boom! You get a whole new cultural center you can draw from scratch.

Huehuecoyotl · May 25, 2013

jycee said:
Very true, most people don't realize that it can even snow in the Sierra Madre del Sur as far south as Oaxaca: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_Madre_del_Sur

Also, I reckon we could see two genera of Llama surviving, like we do in South America. One that could be exclusively dry "highland" like vicugna (includes vicuñas and alpacas), which would be mostly limited to the Mexican Altiplano and the Southern Rockies. And a more adaptable genus (like llama), which could spread across most of Mexico north of the Eje Volcanico all the way to the American South West.

It would certainly still be difficult for either genus to survive South of the Sierra Madres, into Central America and the Southern Mexican coasts. And the micro climates of the regions will still place certain obstacles in the adoption of the new domesticate outside their native range. Though it will certainly happen at some point.

This is cool, you could still get a recognizable north america but give the local cultures a boost. And yet at the same time make it possible to keep everything north of this llama's range mostly unchanged (with certain butterfly nets, of course). And since we know the Incas never travelled North, there is no reason for the Nahua llama breeders to travel South. So once again you can keep South America relatively recognizable.

But one thing you can change is to have the "prairie" Llama make it to California. Trading cultures across the South West would certainly reach Cali, and boom! You get a whole new cultural center you can draw from scratch.

All very interesting thoughts!

I'd considered having a second species of Hemiauchenia, smaller and more gracile than H. macrocephala, survive the extinction as well - maybe H. guanajuatensis.