AHC: Protestant Spain
- Thread starter Pericles
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The remaining population would continue to be Catholic. The Visigoths could not continue to be a religious minority ruling a considerably much much larger Catholic majority.
Speaking of real protestantism I think the way to go would be to have the pope in a temporal capacity end up allied with an enemy of Spain. Perhaps even muslims. Doesn't guarantee conversion alone (see: France) but opens that door.
Going back into the dark ages....whoosh, then you've so much stuff with anti-popes and splits in the church you can mess with. Some fun with Byzantines appeals to me
Going back into the dark ages....whoosh, then you've so much stuff with anti-popes and splits in the church you can mess with. Some fun with Byzantines appeals to me
Charles V grew up at the court of Margaret of Austria in Mechelen, where there was I believe a substantial presence of intellectuals enthusiastic over a literal "Reform" of the Church in the years before the 95 Theses and the rest. Even in OTL there were Lutheran Habsburgs (yes! Isabella Queen of Denmark, I believe) And even in OTL many figures like Erasmus held out hope that Charles would be a figure who would champion the cause of a limited and pragmatic reform of the church. I'm actually getting ready to read a bio of Charles that I'm hoping will help explain why he didn't go down this path, but instead sided with the theological conservatives.
But that said, it does not seem like it would require that dramatic a change for him to think differently on the subject than he did in our timeline. There were some Reformist thinkers in parts of Spain even as matters stood, and it is easy to forget how before the Counter-Reformation got underway the geographic divisions between "Catholic" and "Protestant" Europe were not as firm as they would ultimately become, with substantial reformist movements in Austria and the Italian states.
Some really interesting questions arise: if Charles V turns Lutheran or quasi-Lutheran, does he face a rebellion in Spain? To put a finer point on it, is he under the unenviable circumstance of having to pull off a reverse-Schmalkaldic War, using German armies to enforce his rule in Spain? If the Valois become the great defenders of religious orthodoxy in their struggle against the Habsburgs, how does that shift the balance of power in the great struggle in Italy in the 1520s? And if you really want to play the butterflies, consider the ramifications this would have for Charles V's epic struggle against the Ottomans.
But that said, it does not seem like it would require that dramatic a change for him to think differently on the subject than he did in our timeline. There were some Reformist thinkers in parts of Spain even as matters stood, and it is easy to forget how before the Counter-Reformation got underway the geographic divisions between "Catholic" and "Protestant" Europe were not as firm as they would ultimately become, with substantial reformist movements in Austria and the Italian states.
Some really interesting questions arise: if Charles V turns Lutheran or quasi-Lutheran, does he face a rebellion in Spain? To put a finer point on it, is he under the unenviable circumstance of having to pull off a reverse-Schmalkaldic War, using German armies to enforce his rule in Spain? If the Valois become the great defenders of religious orthodoxy in their struggle against the Habsburgs, how does that shift the balance of power in the great struggle in Italy in the 1520s? And if you really want to play the butterflies, consider the ramifications this would have for Charles V's epic struggle against the Ottomans.
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Well, in the TL I'm working on right now, I'm planning for Barcelona to end up as an island of Protestantism in a mostly-Catholic Spain (basically, the Inquisition doesn't have authority in Catalonia, so the few Spainish (and some Southern French) protestants flee there...), but I think the OP wanted a predominantly Protestant Spain rather than just a little bit of Protestantism...
I think the suggestion earlier that the Pope needs to be allied with an enemy of Spain is a good one. Here's a couple of factors, which, put together might make the difference:
1) No inquisition. For whatever reason the rulers use some other (less repressive) method to deal with crypto-Jews, crypto-Muslims and heretics. What about a system where non-Catholics simply have to pay more tax (I seem to recall the Ottoman empire used this system for non-Muslims), although I forget waht it was called. That would actually give the government an economic incentive to encourage non-Cahtolics.
2) A reconquista which is easier and over sooner. This would mean that Spaniards wouldn't feel the need to be united against a common foe.
3) A less unified Spain with a larger number of smaller states. Maybe Leon, Castille, Aragon, Catalonia, Navarre, could all remain separate. Especially if these separate states feared domination by a foreign power (France?) which also controlled the Papacy.
4) A series of Popes which alienate the Spanish people. Again, if the Pope is dominated by France that would definitely help, but the Pope could also implement specific anti-Spanish policies. Like demanding that all land won in the reconquista belongs to the church or something like that.
5) A King who wants an annulment the Pope won't grant (I don't know if this would work as well in Spain as it did in England, but perhaps).
I think the suggestion earlier that the Pope needs to be allied with an enemy of Spain is a good one. Here's a couple of factors, which, put together might make the difference:
1) No inquisition. For whatever reason the rulers use some other (less repressive) method to deal with crypto-Jews, crypto-Muslims and heretics. What about a system where non-Catholics simply have to pay more tax (I seem to recall the Ottoman empire used this system for non-Muslims), although I forget waht it was called. That would actually give the government an economic incentive to encourage non-Cahtolics.
2) A reconquista which is easier and over sooner. This would mean that Spaniards wouldn't feel the need to be united against a common foe.
3) A less unified Spain with a larger number of smaller states. Maybe Leon, Castille, Aragon, Catalonia, Navarre, could all remain separate. Especially if these separate states feared domination by a foreign power (France?) which also controlled the Papacy.
4) A series of Popes which alienate the Spanish people. Again, if the Pope is dominated by France that would definitely help, but the Pope could also implement specific anti-Spanish policies. Like demanding that all land won in the reconquista belongs to the church or something like that.
5) A King who wants an annulment the Pope won't grant (I don't know if this would work as well in Spain as it did in England, but perhaps).
Jizya
Under Islamic law, jizya or jizyah (Arabic: جزية ǧizyah IPA: [dʒizja]; Ottoman Turkish: cizye;) is a per capita tax levied on a section of an Islamic state's non-Muslim citizens, who meet certain criteria. The tax is and was to be levied on able-bodied adult males of military age and affording power[1] (but with specific exemptions).[2][3] From the point of view of the Muslim rulers, jizya was a material proof of the non-Muslims' acceptance of subjection to the state and its laws, "just as for the inhabitants it was a concrete continuation of the taxes paid to earlier regimes."[4] In return, non-Muslim citizens were permitted to practice their faith, to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy, to be entitled to the Muslim state's protection from outside aggression, and to be exempted from military service and the zakat taxes obligatory upon Muslim citizens.[5][6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
Under Islamic law, jizya or jizyah (Arabic: جزية ǧizyah IPA: [dʒizja]; Ottoman Turkish: cizye;) is a per capita tax levied on a section of an Islamic state's non-Muslim citizens, who meet certain criteria. The tax is and was to be levied on able-bodied adult males of military age and affording power[1] (but with specific exemptions).[2][3] From the point of view of the Muslim rulers, jizya was a material proof of the non-Muslims' acceptance of subjection to the state and its laws, "just as for the inhabitants it was a concrete continuation of the taxes paid to earlier regimes."[4] In return, non-Muslim citizens were permitted to practice their faith, to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy, to be entitled to the Muslim state's protection from outside aggression, and to be exempted from military service and the zakat taxes obligatory upon Muslim citizens.[5][6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
The main issue with the cryptos was that Old Christians resented their economic success once they embraced their new status and agitated against them or tried to show they weren't really Christians. A tax that would reduce that success might be helpful in that respect but it might also encourage actual sedition.
It's one thing to convert the King of Spain like Charles V and a number of Spanish nobility to Protestantism, but to make a Protestant Spain like you're talking about you have to bring on board the majority of the Spanish people and that's another whole do.
Yes bringing the King on board as a Protestant will have a big draw. But a Protestant Spain means changing the hearts and minds of a whole Spanish population that are very devout Catholics. That will take a big struggle over a long time. Look at the Catholic/Protestant struggles in other European countries.
Yes bringing the King on board as a Protestant will have a big draw. But a Protestant Spain means changing the hearts and minds of a whole Spanish population that are very devout Catholics. That will take a big struggle over a long time. Look at the Catholic/Protestant struggles in other European countries.
katchen
Banned
One possibility would emerge from an Ottoman victory at Lepanto leading to an Ottoman conquest of Italy--and Rome, before the Pope can escape. A Pope in "enemy" hands (just like the Patriarch of Constantinopole) might well force both France and Spain to create their own churches, much as England did, but for very different reasons. Neither could put much credence in Bulls issued by Popes controlled by the Ottomans, however liberal the Ottomans might be to people under their rule.
Deleted member 70671
Couldn't the Pope go to Avignon, assuming it's still on papal rule?
Well look, you have medieval historians like Diarmid MacCulloch who say that Catholic Christianity and allegiance to the Pope were the defining principles of English identity in the Middle Ages, the actual organizing principle of the country. What changed that began as a whim of the Prince having to do with the technicalities of marriage law. Likewise, France had a robust Protestant movement that probably included a majority of the population in some regions of the kingdom's south. What changed that also began as a choice by the Prince on St. Bartholomew's Day 1572. Cuius religio eius religio is in a certain kind of absolute sense a fantasy, but the ultimate boundaries of Catholic and Reformed Europe were shaped in most cases by the faith of the sovereign. It's not that the commoners just did whatever the king told them unthinkingly, it's that wherever either side had the allegiance of the sovereign the substantial suasive power of the early modern state was brought to bear on the population. Just ask the Pilgrimage of Grace or the Calvinists of Navarre.
Absolutely. Totally irrealistic and contradictory.
And the fact that Erasmus was tolerant and that there were several trends of catholicism which had self introspection in common with protestantism did not make those catholics protestant.
Religion was not only a matter of free choice. It was also a matter of culture, national History and social conditions. And the conditions in Spain were very différent from those in Holland or Northern and eastern Germany.
That could conceivably change over time. Look at Egypt. It once had a Christian majority and Muslim ruling class, but gradually changed over time to have a Muslim majority.
ManintheField
Banned
I know in the immediate aftermath of the Reformation Protestantism was much more widespread than it is today. It was only as the backlash formed and hit that Catholicism began to creep back into areas it is thought of as native to these days, like Austria or Northern Italy.
I imagine there already were Protestants in Spain during the 16th century, you just need to find a way to keep what was probably a small minority safe and get it to grow.
I imagine there already were Protestants in Spain during the 16th century, you just need to find a way to keep what was probably a small minority safe and get it to grow.
Not in Spain. Nor in Italy.
Spain built itself on religious war much before protestantism appeared. You also must take into account that, on latin traditional and rural societies, there was not as much appetite for a personal devotion as in urban northern Europe.
You also must wonder why protestantism was born in Germany. Because Germany was the milk cow of the Roman Church because it was divided and weak. So was Britain to a lesser extent since king John. This largely explains that.
France and Spain did not pay much for the roman church because Spain fought the Moors and France had a strong king.
Italy took most of the profit. You don't protest against a système from which you benefit.
Spain built itself on religious war much before protestantism appeared. You also must take into account that, on latin traditional and rural societies, there was not as much appetite for a personal devotion as in urban northern Europe.
You also must wonder why protestantism was born in Germany. Because Germany was the milk cow of the Roman Church because it was divided and weak. So was Britain to a lesser extent since king John. This largely explains that.
France and Spain did not pay much for the roman church because Spain fought the Moors and France had a strong king.
Italy took most of the profit. You don't protest against a système from which you benefit.