AHC: A True Age of Chivalry?

Onyx · Apr 30, 2013

In truth, I never really read about an era during the Middle Ages of what mainstream media/culture pertains to (Ex: Full Plated Armor Knights going against Arrows, non-use of firearms and gunpowder, the pre-enlightenment of the Renaissance). Yes granted these events did happen, but in different years and eras, the Crusades died out by the 13th Century, Full Plated Armor (Not surcoat upon plates as in Crusader times and even well into the Hundred Years War, but full Gothic Armor in what Im saying) arrived hardly in the Medieval Century most likely at the end of the 14th and the 15th Centuries, and by the time this happened, gunpowder was well on its way. Not to mention the Renaissance was already at Europes doorstep. It seems that while there was a time this all took could've took place, but barely (Probably from the late 1300's to early 1400's), the Middle Ages was at its twilight

So lets have a challenge. Let's Find a way in which there was actually a given time (I guess we can have this PoD to happen from late 1200s to early 1400s say) where the stereotypicalized version of Medieval Times (No not Dragons

) took place. Where gunpowder was used at a minimum and the Bow & Arrow was its prime, where Fully Armored Knights battled, and when the Renaissance didn't take fold or was also at a minimum.

How about it gents?

LHB · Apr 30, 2013

Delay the invention of gunpowder in China by a few centuries and you should get the whole full plate look you're going for. Metalworking technology and capabilities had been improving throughout the period & coupled with the arms race driving these developments sooner or later someone's going to spit out Gothic plate. Have it happen by the mid 14th century (certainly doable) and you'll get a pretty good 100-150 years before the Renaissance is supposed to kick in.

Elfwine · Apr 30, 2013

One problem that arises is that full plate of this sort is expensive and exhausting to wear. So it would be hard to make it dominant among the common knight even if it was around.

Onyx · May 1, 2013

Elfwine said:
One problem that arises is that full plate of this sort is expensive and exhausting to wear. So it would be hard to make it dominant among the common knight even if it was around.

Well have the average non-knighted men-at-arms/foot soldiers have Plate with Chainmail Armor as seen during the 1300's and I guess that will help that problem out

Elfwine · May 1, 2013

Onyx said:
Well have the average non-knighted men-at-arms/foot soldiers have Plate with Chainmail Armor as seen during the 1300's and I guess that will help that problem out.

Except for sergeants like those of the knightly orders, the average infantryman simply cannot afford heavy armor.

And I'm not sure even they wore that as standard.

Onyx · May 1, 2013

Elfwine said:
Except for sergeants like those of the knightly orders, the average infantryman simply cannot afford heavy armor.

And I'm not sure even they wore that as standard.

Anyway for Chainmail/Plate be commonly used among the common as a lesser alternative from the full-suite plate armor?

Elfwine · May 1, 2013

Onyx said:
Anyway for Chainmail/Plate be commonly used among the common as a lesser alternative from the full-suite plate armor?

In a word, no.

Onyx · May 3, 2013

Delay the invention of gunpowder in China by a few centuries and you should get the whole full plate look you're going for.

Is there any other way to delay Gunpowder from entering Europe than such an event that would cause massive Ripples?

Metalworking technology and capabilities had been improving throughout the period & coupled with the arms race driving these developments sooner or later someone's going to spit out Gothic plate. Have it happen by the mid 14th century (certainly doable) and you'll get a pretty good 100-150 years before the Renaissance is supposed to kick in.

Would having the continent be more peaceful from the more chaotic period of the Ending High/Late Medieval Period make this happen?

Onyx · May 6, 2013

Bumping....

Michael B · May 6, 2013

Onyx said:
Is there any other way to delay Gunpowder from entering Europe than such an event that would cause massive Ripples?

You also need to stop bounders like the English and the Flemish using knight killing tactics such as long bows and massed spear formations. If knights are going to reign supreme in manner of mainstream culture they have got to be able to ride over infantry rather than be cut down.

By 1300 the Welsh, Scots and Flemish were all used infantry capable of seeing off knights because they could not afford the real McCoy. Gunpower is only really the cherry on the top and anyway is probably more useful in sieges than field actions.

Minchandre · May 6, 2013

Onyx said:
Would having the continent be more peaceful from the more chaotic period of the Ending High/Late Medieval Period make this happen?

Maybe a little. Limiting the spread of larger commoner armies, and preventing the rise of professional armies, might keep war a little smaller scale for a while.

mikegold · May 6, 2013

Michael B said:
You also need to stop bounders like the English and the Flemish using knight killing tactics such as long bows and massed spear formations. If knights are going to reign supreme in manner of mainstream culture they have got to be able to ride over infantry rather than be cut down.

By 1300 the Welsh, Scots and Flemish were all used infantry capable of seeing off knights because they could not afford the real McCoy. Gunpower is only really the cherry on the top and anyway is probably more useful in sieges than field actions.

Also the Swiss, and some of the Italians. But in most of these cases (the Scots being the big exception) it had a lot to do with the development of a proto-middle-class burgher culture than emphasized, by the standards of the time, egalitarian pragmatism. Kill off the burgher spirit by attaching their heartlands to large empires and you might see a longer feudal era. After all, London and Paris had strong burgher classes but they never really overthrew the Feudal orders.

A strong Italy and a strong Germany, instead of a weak HRE and many small, relatively egalitarian statelets, gives you your longer chivalric age. It also delays the Renaissance and might butterfly modern ideas of representative government, though.

Michael B · May 7, 2013

mikegold said:
Kill off the burgher spirit by attaching their heartlands to large empires and you might see a longer feudal era. After all, London and Paris had strong burgher classes but they never really overthrew the Feudal orders.

A strong Italy and a strong Germany, instead of a weak HRE and many small, relatively egalitarian statelets, gives you your longer chivalric age. It also delays the Renaissance and might butterfly modern ideas of representative government, though.

For the burgher spirit, I suppose if for example cities and towns were hit harder than the countryside by the Black Death you would end up with a more rural society overall and that would favour a more chivalric age. You are going to need more though because Europe had a long history right back to the Classical Greeks of free property owners. As long as that exists, a nucleus for heavy infantry too. They may be pushed to the Celtic Wilds/Scandanavia/the Alps, but they are going to continue to exist. That will happen even if every urban burgher is eliminated.

A strong Germany would help in that it did not an urban culture left over from the Roman Empire. Italy though, unless you smash it as the Slavs did Greece the cities will remain as will burghers to form a nucleus for infantry. A serious Islamic invasion say of most of the peninsular would do the trick nicely.

As long as there is a Classical heritage, representative government will always be on the cards. A good burning of books to get them out of metaphorical print would greatly assist ithe elimination of the idea.

neopeius · May 7, 2013

It was my understanding that full plate isn't actually heavier than, say, a full chain tunic, and the weight is better-distributed. Honestly, when I've worn armor, it's the helmet that always gets me, not the body suit.

Elfwine · May 7, 2013

neopeius said:
It was my understanding that full plate isn't actually heavier than, say, a full chain tunic, and the weight is better-distributed. Honestly, when I've worn armor, it's the helmet that always gets me, not the body suit.

Its hot as Hell, though, isn't it?

And its expensive (in medieval days).

Michael B · May 7, 2013

neopeius said:
It was my understanding that full plate isn't actually heavier than, say, a full chain tunic, and the weight is better-distributed. Honestly, when I've worn armor, it's the helmet that always gets me, not the body suit.

There is a woodcutting somewhere where a guy in plate is doing a cartwheel. Moreover squaddies in WW1 with their backpacks were often more loaded than a medieval knight. The Hollywood image of one being winched onto his horse may be great cinema, but it is a load of tosh.

Elfwine said:
Its hot as Hell, though, isn't it?

Only in hot weather.

Elfwine said:
And its expensive (in medieval days).

Which is one reason why infantrymen used to loot bodies rather than buy their own the little scallywags. More seriously, you are talking about state of the art metalworking by craftsmen. It is not going to be cheap.

MNP · May 7, 2013

Michael B said:
There is a woodcutting somewhere where a guy in plate is doing a cartwheel. Moreover squaddies in WW1 with their backpacks were often more loaded than a medieval knight. The Hollywood image of one being winched onto his horse may be great cinema, but it is a load of tosh.

I think that did rarely happen, but it was tourney armor, something reinforced to prevent injuries, not used in battle.