What are the chances of Buddhist monks somehow getting to Scandanavia and converting them to Buddhism? Feel free to speculate on their version of the religion and culture.
AHC: Buddhist Scandanavia
- Thread starter Baconheimer
- Start date
Buddhism spread fairly fast east way by trade and semi nomadic people moving around. A similar movement along the Russian step happened too with the mongols. Preferably though the advance should happen before Scandinavia is christened but might happen afterwards too so we need an earlier migration period with Buddhists nomads.
Maybe a Buddhist spin on Norse mythology. When you consider how Buddhism affected Japanese martial culture ...
Samurai/Ninja Vikings:
A Study on the Causal Relationship between Raw, Undiluted Awesome
and Spontaneous Intracranial Detonation.
Well that's the title and subject for my entry to the AH.com essay contest sorted.
Samurai/Ninja Vikings:
A Study on the Causal Relationship between Raw, Undiluted Awesome
and Spontaneous Intracranial Detonation.
Well that's the title and subject for my entry to the AH.com essay contest sorted.
If Buddhism becomes a dominant religion in Russia a fair amount of Vikings would convert for the reason of trade. Buddhism was extremely expansive in its early history making head way into China and Japan. A similar expansion westward is not impossible. Even quite late it made some far reached expansions for example the Buddhists at Kalmykia at the Caspian sea.
Why would "reason of trade" inspire converting to Buddhism more than whatever is to the south and west?
Some Bloke: I'm not sure Zen and Norse warrior values mesh up quite as well as Zen and bushido.
That being said, the fact the concept is pretty cool is why I'm settling for questioning the whys rather than calling this a crazy idea.
Zirantun
Banned
I'm not Buddhist, but I have a friend named Mai who is half Japanese and raised Buddhist/Shinto. When I asked her how you could be a member of two religions at the same time, she explained to me that Buddhism is a "life-style", and Shintoism is a religion. That being said, Buddhism is compatible with almost any local religion, as it absorbed Japanese, Korean, Mongolian, Tibetan, Chinese, Indian, and even Greek folk religions.
I also like this idea because Buddhism is compatible with being a drunk raider, whereas Islam is not. I've seen "Muslim Scandinavia" timelines on here and I think it's kind of a silly idea. The Vikings had extensive contact with Muslims via the Black Sea and the Mediterranean, and the Kievan Rus entertained Muslim missionaries. Alcohol is forbidden in Islam though, and I imagine the strict eating standards of halal would be a problem for the Vikings as well, since pigs were farmed in Scandinavia.
You would have to have a POD a LONG time ago though. Probably something that allows Eastern ideas to travel into the West more fluidly. My old Persians Conquer Greece timeline allowed Buddhism to diffuse into Europe, with Scotland being the last majority Buddhist nation by the modern period. That was before I was able to get on this forum though...
I also like this idea because Buddhism is compatible with being a drunk raider, whereas Islam is not. I've seen "Muslim Scandinavia" timelines on here and I think it's kind of a silly idea. The Vikings had extensive contact with Muslims via the Black Sea and the Mediterranean, and the Kievan Rus entertained Muslim missionaries. Alcohol is forbidden in Islam though, and I imagine the strict eating standards of halal would be a problem for the Vikings as well, since pigs were farmed in Scandinavia.
You would have to have a POD a LONG time ago though. Probably something that allows Eastern ideas to travel into the West more fluidly. My old Persians Conquer Greece timeline allowed Buddhism to diffuse into Europe, with Scotland being the last majority Buddhist nation by the modern period. That was before I was able to get on this forum though...
This really seams unlikely unless you somehow get a Buddhist Baltic. It would be really weird to have such a different religious practices than its neighbors with out any past continuations.
I think the Norse would like the caste system, possibly with warriors being the highest caste, which has to be worked up to. Maybe, when a warrior finally dies in battle, he gos to Valhalla, ending his journey through lives. If the warrior does not die in battle he lives as another warrior. If the warrior is a coward he goes down castes.
Since the Norse society is based around the idea that every free man is a warrior . . .
why?
And I'm not an expert or practicing Buddhist, but I'm not sure caste is inherently a part of Buddhism.
One of the reasons for the rise of Buddhism was as a revolt against the caste system in Hinduism. Lord Buddha was a staunch opponent of the caste system and he challenged it in his sermons. He persuaded the kings like Bimbisara of Magadha and Prasenajit of Kosala to act accordingly.
But it is a fact that years after the nirvana of Lord Buddha, the caste system infiltrated the Buddhism in the subcontinent and it is seen in Sri Lanka. The caste system has influenced every religion in India. Sikhism, Christianity or Islam could not resist it completely.
But it is a fact that years after the nirvana of Lord Buddha, the caste system infiltrated the Buddhism in the subcontinent and it is seen in Sri Lanka. The caste system has influenced every religion in India. Sikhism, Christianity or Islam could not resist it completely.
The Buddhists at Kalmykia are ostensibly a Mongol population; they were Buddhist before they came to Europe, rather than being late western converts.
Caste is, in fact, something that Buddhists originally frowned upon and disregarded in India-- part of the reason that the Brahmans who converted back then lost most of their privileged status after the fall of Buddhism in India.
But seeing as that wasn't Baconheimer's point (I'm not sure what his point was, since he seemed to want to interject Hinduism, which isn't really proselytizing religion into this thread about Buddhist Scandinavians) so I'll let it lie.
katchen
Banned
Vikings in Siberia or Mongols in Sweden
There are basically two ways Buddhism could have come to Scandinavia. The first, and I wonder why this diid not happen, is for Norse traders to penetrate Siberia through ithe Ob and Yensei river systems and reach Mongolia (then pre-Muslim Eastern Turks), Buddhist Hsi-Hsia and Kara-Khitai on the way to trade with China. Also portage to the Lena via the Lower Tunguska River and from there, reach the Sea of Okhotsk and south along the coasts to Koryo Korea, Kamakura Japan and thence China by sea.
Why the Vikings weren't able to do this or didn't do this is a real riddle. This was the time of the Medieval Warm Period, a time which is supposedly as warm as our own time, when the Arctic Coast of Siberia shuld have been ice free at least to the Ob and Yensei Rivers and quite likely, all the way to the Bering Strait. How far the Vikings got into the Northeast Passage beyond the White Sea (Bjarmiland) and what stopped them is a riddle only archaeology will solve. But ATL, it wouldn't have, and Vikings could have contacted Buddhists as easy as sailing up the Ihrtish River to it's source and reaching Kara Khitai in Sinkiang.
The other way, obviously, would have been if the Mongols had shifted a bit further North, conquered Novgorod in 1240 and then, seeking to conquer as far as the Atlantic Ocean, crossed the winter ice of the Gulf of Bothnia at the Aland Islands or the Vasa Narrows and conquered Uppsala and Nidaros (Trondheim). Then have the Golden Horde hold on up North as Tibetan Buddhist monks convert most of the Mongols to Buddhism. (They would also have to defeat their cousins in Sibir who converted to Islam). In that case, instead of a Christian Scandinavia, we would likely have a Buddhist, Gelugpa Scandinavia and Finnish speaking Great Russia and Baltic States down to Lithuania facing off a Catholic Poland and perhaps an Eastern Orthodox or Muslim Ukraine. Which would make for an interesting religious stew and set of religious wars in Europe since I cannot see a Catholic Holy Roman Empire tolerating a Buddhist Scandinavia, which would have to unify to survive--and probably have to propagate in the British Isles as well. Remember, though, this Buddhist Scandinavia would extend all the way to the Urals and beyond and most of that area would speak Finnish or Mongolian.
There are basically two ways Buddhism could have come to Scandinavia. The first, and I wonder why this diid not happen, is for Norse traders to penetrate Siberia through ithe Ob and Yensei river systems and reach Mongolia (then pre-Muslim Eastern Turks), Buddhist Hsi-Hsia and Kara-Khitai on the way to trade with China. Also portage to the Lena via the Lower Tunguska River and from there, reach the Sea of Okhotsk and south along the coasts to Koryo Korea, Kamakura Japan and thence China by sea.
Why the Vikings weren't able to do this or didn't do this is a real riddle. This was the time of the Medieval Warm Period, a time which is supposedly as warm as our own time, when the Arctic Coast of Siberia shuld have been ice free at least to the Ob and Yensei Rivers and quite likely, all the way to the Bering Strait. How far the Vikings got into the Northeast Passage beyond the White Sea (Bjarmiland) and what stopped them is a riddle only archaeology will solve. But ATL, it wouldn't have, and Vikings could have contacted Buddhists as easy as sailing up the Ihrtish River to it's source and reaching Kara Khitai in Sinkiang.
The other way, obviously, would have been if the Mongols had shifted a bit further North, conquered Novgorod in 1240 and then, seeking to conquer as far as the Atlantic Ocean, crossed the winter ice of the Gulf of Bothnia at the Aland Islands or the Vasa Narrows and conquered Uppsala and Nidaros (Trondheim). Then have the Golden Horde hold on up North as Tibetan Buddhist monks convert most of the Mongols to Buddhism. (They would also have to defeat their cousins in Sibir who converted to Islam). In that case, instead of a Christian Scandinavia, we would likely have a Buddhist, Gelugpa Scandinavia and Finnish speaking Great Russia and Baltic States down to Lithuania facing off a Catholic Poland and perhaps an Eastern Orthodox or Muslim Ukraine. Which would make for an interesting religious stew and set of religious wars in Europe since I cannot see a Catholic Holy Roman Empire tolerating a Buddhist Scandinavia, which would have to unify to survive--and probably have to propagate in the British Isles as well. Remember, though, this Buddhist Scandinavia would extend all the way to the Urals and beyond and most of that area would speak Finnish or Mongolian.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
You may need to have the Golden Horde with a Buddhist majority. In other words, have more Oirats and possibly Buddhist Mongol tribes accompanying Jochi instead of relying on Kipchaks in order to have a Buddhist Golden Horde spreading Buddhism to Scandinavia. Which means some other Mongol leader has to be a Buddhist Khan and not Berke or Sartaq.
The Kalmyks are not the indigenous population of the region, they migrated their in the 17th century.
twovultures
Donor
I wrote a short story, although admittedly it involves a Scandinavianized England rather than Scandinavia proper.