Northumbria predominant

What if St. Edwin was not killed at the battle of Hatfield Chase, but instead was victorious?

According to Wiki, Edwin was Bretwalda, and recognized as over-lord by all the Anglo-Saxons except Eadbald of Kent.

He already had control of Northern England, Anglesey and Gwynedd.

At Hatfield chase, he was defeated by the exiled King of Gwynedd and Penda of Mercia, would it be possible, then, if he wins to add Mercia to his Northumbrian kingdom?

Even if Northumbria is predominant it's still first in line for the Viking invasions. If it mananges to gain full dominance over all the other English kingdoms this could see the complete collapse of England- if Wessex has been crushed there will be no opposition to the Danes when they come down from the North.

On the other hand, a unified England under Northumbria might be better able to resist the Vikings in the first place.

Flocculencio said:

On the other hand, a unified England under Northumbria might be better able to resist the Vikings in the first place.

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I was kind of thinking that, the Vikings being repulsed from the North of England, with everything from the Wash to the Firth of Forth being a part of Northumbria, maybe add in Mercia, with the rest as client kings?

Would that be possible?

Phoenix said:

I was kind of thinking that, the Vikings being repulsed from the North of England, with everything from the Wash to the Firth of Forth being a part of Northumbria, maybe add in Mercia, with the rest as client kings?

Would that be possible?

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It would certainly be possible- I would think that England being the size it was would have been unified sooner or later though.

The main interest in this scenario is an Eoforwic-centered England rather than one with it's centre in London, Winchester or somewhere else in the South due to the Kingdom of Wessex ending up as the supreme English kingdom.

The Northumbrian Kings of England might well be more naval oriented what with Eoforwic being directly in the path of the Northmen. Once the Vikings have been beaten off from the shores of England itself might possibly in later years actively attempt to make expeditions of their own. For example, they might very well decide to cross the Irish sea to take the Norse settlements in Dublin and elsewhere in Ireland.

Even more importantly, before the Norse invasions, Northumbria was one of the greatest centres of knowledge in Western Europe. If Northumbria stands against the Danes, the resulting Anglo-Saxon England could well become the most prosperous and advanced state in Christendom (even more so than it was in OTL).

Of course getting into more speculative stuff a Northumbria centered England might well have the resources and knowledge to be able to take Iceland and then even resume the settlement of Vinland (Sorry- this is one of my pet ATL themes and I always try to work Anglo-Saxon based TLs around to this )

Flocc said:

It would certainly be possible- I would think that England being the size it was would have been unified sooner or later though.

The main interest in this scenario is an Eoforwic-centered England rather than one with it's centre in London, Winchester or somewhere else in the South due to the Kingdom of Wessex ending up as the supreme English kingdom.

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*then realises that without the Vikings there wouldn't be a Yorkshire, we'd just be the Geordies' little brown cousins*

...

Flocculencio said:

Even if Northumbria is predominant it's still first in line for the Viking invasions. If it mananges to gain full dominance over all the other English kingdoms this could see the complete collapse of England- if Wessex has been crushed there will be no opposition to the Danes when they come down from the North.

On the other hand, a unified England under Northumbria might be better able to resist the Vikings in the first place.

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We couldv'e taken those horn headed nancy boys!

Bloody Ikea.

More thoughts- Scotland is now far closer to the seat of English power. This could mean that events taking place there are much more likely to be felt in the capital at Eoforwic.

By this point, say 1000, I'd think most of England would have been unified under the Northumbrian crown- possibly Wessex might be a vassal kingdom though I think it's more likely that it would have been absorbed at some point. Also, I'm going to go with the plan I outlined earlier where Eoforwic makes a concerted attempt to drive the Vikings from Ireland (and maybe even the Shetlands and Orkneys). Thus, any turmoil in Scotland or any Scottish alliance with Denmark or Norway would give a very good reason for the Kings at Eoforwic to contemplate an invasion.

What about Normandy? Do the Danes still settle there? Indeed, perhaps more would do if England and Ireland were harder targets...

Maybe, if more Danes settle in Normandy, they would spread along the coast, bordering Brittany?

Another thing, Scotland, as we know it, is half Northumbrian, with the Forth being the northern border.

Would it havebeen possible for the Northumbrians to push north, and push out the Scots who are there, and block the rest from crossing?

Thande said:

What about Normandy? Do the Danes still settle there? Indeed, perhaps more would do if England and Ireland were harder targets...

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Or perhaps the Northumbrians (or rather their vassals in Wessex) manage to smash the raiding fleets comprehensively, closing the Channel to the Norse and resulting in an early end to the Viking raids in Western Europe. As a result Scandinavian influence gets pushed to the East resulting in an even more strongly Scandinavian state or states in the Russian lands.

Phoenix said:

Another thing, Scotland, as we know it, is half Northumbrian, with the Forth being the northern border.

Would it havebeen possible for the Northumbrians to push north, and push out the Scots who are there, and block the rest from crossing?

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That would be quite interesting- an English nation occupying the whole island of Great Britain with the Scots confined to Ireland.

Either way the Picts are screwed...

I wonder what would happen to the Celtic kingdom of Strathclyde, which was at one point part of Wales? In OTL it was the Scots who crushed the last king, Owen the Bald, but in TTL...

Come to think of it, I could see Wales generally doing better in TTL. The Northumbrians, after all, would be enough on the plates for Mercia and Wessex, the two powers that did the most damage to them in OTL.

Thande said:

Come to think of it, I could see Wales generally doing better in TTL. The Northumbrians, after all, would be enough on the plates for Mercia and Wessex, the two powers that did the most damage to them in OTL.

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Generally doing better up to a point- once one of the Saxon kingdoms achieves dominance over the others it's probably going to look westwards. At the very least the thanes of the Welsh Marches are going to complain to the King about bandits and the Crowns hand will be forced even if there wasn't much intention to take Wales in the first place.

Of course this depends on how England is unified. Perhaps instead of one kingdom conquering the others the process could be more decentralised and less formal with the King of Northumbria (or whichever Kingdom gains dominance) being acclaimed High King (Ofercyning, literally Over-King being a possible title) of the Angles and Saxons (or whatever title he chooses) with the other Kings owing feudal-style loyalty to him but running internal affairs in their own kingdoms, generally only obliged to obey Ofercyning in times of war when the entire fyrd is mustered.

In which case the Welsh rulers might decide to swear fealty to the Ofercyning as well to avoid outright conquest.

Here's a stab at this, one assuming a powerful Wales:

Thande said:

Here's a stab at this, one assuming a powerful Wales:

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So in that one is Cymru a vassal state of Northumbria? I ask because it's in a smaller font than the rest.

Also might not Northumbria become known simply as Anglalond after it absorbed the other Saxon states into its dominance?

Flocc said:

So in that one is Cymru a vassal state of Northumbria? I ask because it's in a smaller font than the rest.

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Yes. But Cymru includes all the yellow areas.

Flocc said:

Also might not Northumbria become known simply as Anglalond after it absorbed the other Saxon states into its dominance?

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Probably, given that the name makes no sense if their land extends south of the Humber.

If the country is simply named Englaland or whatever, we would probably see the cultural division Northumbria and Southumbria (which was only briefly a cultural division in OTL) - the North/South divide would presumably be backwards, with the North being the rich, cultured area.

Thande said:

If the country is simply named Englaland or whatever, we would probably see the cultural division Northumbria and Southumbria (which was only briefly a cultural division in OTL) - the North/South divide would presumably be backwards, with the North being the rich, cultured area.

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I could see the South being the bread basket of the nation, a sleepy agricultural region as you say. However, they'd probably have the highest population and as such would be able to contribute the most men to the fyrd (except for the Coastal lords whose contribution would probably be in ships for the Overking's navy).

The Overking's fyrd has the potential to be terribly impressive in TTL- English heavy infantry backed by Welsh longbowmen.

Also, now that the English have taken the Shetlands and Orkneys, Iceland is cut off from Scandinavia- I'd imagine it would only be a matter of tiem before it fell into the English orbit.

Flocc said:

Also, now that the English have taken the Shetlands and Orkneys, Iceland is cut off from Scandinavia- I'd imagine it would only be a matter of tiem before it fell into the English orbit.

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And the English (Anglo-Welsh?) naval tradition begins earlier than OTL, perhaps even leading to an earlier discovery of America - or rather a Leif Erikson equivalent with the actual manpower to back it up.

I could see a United Kingdom analogue between Englaland and Wales (with Wales as the 'Scotland' - outweighed in terms of population and land but more powerful than you would expect). However, it would have to be on terms other than the OTL dynastic ones, because Englaland (and Wales?) would still have elective monarchies.

Thande said:

I could see a United Kingdom analogue between Englaland and Wales (with Wales as the 'Scotland' - outweighed in terms of population and land but more powerful than you would expect). However, it would have to be on terms other than the OTL dynastic ones, because Englaland (and Wales?) would still have elective monarchies.

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Probably the elective monarchy would be a lot stronger than, say the Polish one. The Kingship of the various constituent parts of the "United Kingdom" might run through heredity. These royal dynasties might be considered the Great Houses of the Realm from which an Overking could be chosen. So you might have five (or maybe six) Great Houses each with sworn thanes as their bannermen: Northumbria, Mercia, Southumbria (Wessex), Cymru, a Scottish Kingdom which wouldn't be called Scotland since the Scottish incursion would have been checked and Eire (if and when it's conquered by the United Kingdom).

Also instead of an elective monarchy maybe a situation might arise similar to that of modern Malaysia- each of the Great Houses takes the Overkingship in turn.

Thande said:

And the English (Anglo-Welsh?) naval tradition begins earlier than OTL, perhaps even leading to an earlier discovery of America - or rather a Leif Erikson equivalent with the actual manpower to back it up.

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Yes indeed. Perhaps the Anglo-Saxons might go a-Viking on their own account bringing parts of Scandinavia itself under the banner of the Overkingdom.

Another thought- since the Cymri have control of Brittany this might make for problems for the French down the line.

After all, taking on the Bretons when they were unsupported is one thing but in TTL any French incursion into Brittany means that the French crown will have to face all the rest of the Cymri and the English to boot.

Also- a thought on religion. If the Celtic form of Christianity prevails in TTL that gives one more factor distancing the Overkingdom from the Continent.