Historia Mundi

651 AUC (103 BC)
- Alexander Jannaeus succeeds Aristobulus I as King of Judea.

652 AUC (102 BC)
- The Romans, under the command of Gaius Marius, defeat the Teutones at Aquae Sextiae.
- The Sericans [1] capture Kokand.

653 AUC (101 BC)
- The Romans, under Marius, defeat the Cimbri at Vercellae.
- Cleopatra III dies.
- Ptolemy Apion inherits Cyrenaica.

654 AUC (100 BC)
- POD Gaius Memmius, a candidate for Consul, dies of natural causes. [2]
- Tigranes II of Armenia is placed on the Armenian throne by Parthians.

*****

[1] The Chinese
[2] In our timeline, Memmius' death was orchestrated by Lucius Appuleius Saturninus, a political ally of Marius. In the resulting fallout, the Senate ordered Marius to apprehend Saturninus and his followers. Marius complied and was close to peacefully solving the riots, when some of the Optimates were able to stone Saturninus to death. This incident cost Marius much of his reputation and further weakened the rule of law in the Republic.

Alright, so this is more of a teaser than anything else, seeing as everything until the very end is our history. But, I like to tease. :cool:
And if you haven't figured it out, this it the Roman Timeline 3.0
 
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The 651 thing threw me off first, especially when combined with Judea... I was thinking something along the lines of "Aristobulus doesn't sound very Hrebrew", and then noticed the BC date and realized it was the Maccabees...

Not really enough to make a comment on, but the first two Roman Timelines were very interesting.
 
Imajin said:
The 651 thing threw me off first, especially when combined with Judea... I was thinking something along the lines of "Aristobulus doesn't sound very Hrebrew", and then noticed the BC date and realized it was the Maccabees...

Not really enough to make a comment on, but the first two Roman Timelines were very interesting.
Heh. Yeah, I'm trying to present this from a slightly-less Romanocentric view. I want it to still sound like something written in a Roman state, but to give a general outline of the entire world. So, any good stuff on China, India, etc. would be appreciated.
 
DominusNovus said:
So, any good stuff on China, India, etc. would be appreciated.
Hm, well, I suppose in India you could do something with these guys, though the butterfly effect going eastward might not show up soon enough to stop the Indo-Scythians and friends from wiping out their remnants in the Punjab.

Also, perhaps you could have Tigranes' Armenian Empire last longer?
 
Imajin said:
Hm, well, I suppose in India you could do something with these guys, though the butterfly effect going eastward might not show up soon enough to stop the Indo-Scythians and friends from wiping out their remnants in the Punjab.
Well, I've got a soft spot for the Kushans...

Imajin said:
Also, perhaps you could have Tigranes' Armenian Empire last longer?
I'll look into that.
 
655 AUC (99 BC)
- The Sicilian Slave Revolt is crushed.

657 AUC (97 BC)
- The Romans, under the command of Quintus Caecilius Metellus Nepos, conquer Crete.

658 AUC (96 BC)
- Ptolemy Apion dies and wills Cyrenaica to the Roman Republic.
- Antiochus IX defeats Seleucus VI for control of the Seleucid Empire. The current King, Antiochus VIII is murdered, along with his potential heirs. [3]

660 AUC (94 BC)
- The Lex Livia is passed, which, among other things, extends Roman citizenship to most of the Italian allies. [4]

*****

[3] A divergence from our timeline, where Seleucus VI defeated Antiochus IX.
[4] In our timeline, Marcus Livius Drusus was a proponent of the extension of the vote to the Italians. He wished to extend citizenship to actually weaken the popular demagogues of the time, by creating a new voting force loyal to the Senate. However, he alienated both the populares and the optimates, and was assassinated. In this timeline, Marius is not discredited by Saturninus, but does wish to distance himself from the fiery tribune. He sides with Drusus, providing him with the support needed to pass, and - more importantly - enforce, his laws. With the extension of citizenship, the entire Social War is averted. With no Social War, Mithridates VI won't have the opportunity to attack Roman holdings in Asia.
 
Hm, interesting, while the Seleucids were reduced to Antioch and Syria by now, I wonder what effects will come of Antiochus IX... Though I suppose I can't expect a rerun of Seleucid Triumph here, far too late for that and this is a Roman TL anyway :p
 
Imajin said:
Hm, interesting, while the Seleucids were reduced to Antioch and Syria by now, I wonder what effects will come of Antiochus IX... Though I suppose I can't expect a rerun of Seleucid Triumph here, far too late for that and this is a Roman TL anyway :p
The Seleucids will just linger on for a bit longer. I was looking at the late Seleucid rulers of the time, and everyone had really ugly coins made, showing them as fat and lazy. They actually did this on purpose, it seems, to distance themselves from the chaos of reality. However, Antiochus looks a little less fat and lazy on his coins, so maybe he won't spend all his time in parties.

I figure with the Seleucids a bit stronger, maybe they'll hold off armenia for a bit. Maybe they'll become a Roma client state.
 
mishery said:
Cinna?
Sulla?

What happens?
Good question. Sulla got a lot of glory in the Social War. But then, he was a very skilled commander. I've got some ideas, but I'm certainly open to suggestions.
 
I figured I'd post some of Hendryk's ideas for China, from a PM.

Hendryk said:
So one thing I may suggest is to have more ambassadors sent out with the mission of achieving formal diplomatic links with whatever kingdoms lay to the west of the Parthian lands, in order to increase trade and to send feelers as to a possible alliance against the nomadic barbarians.
Another possibility: Emperor Wu formally adopted Confucianism as state ideology, and got the whole recruitment by open examination started. You might have him go for a true meritocracy by making sure men of all classes try their luck. This would have the added advantage of preempting the rise of the feudal landholding class, which was a major factor in the weakening of the dynasty in subsequent centuries. In fact it could be a perfectly cold-headed calculation on Wu's part: in order to avoid ceding too much power to local nobles (and thus going the same way as the Zhou), he would deliberately restore certain traits of Qin-era centralized administration, and staff it with young graduates of commoner origins (so no danger of divided loyalties with the nobility). It wouldn't make a noticeable difference at first, but Wu's successors would find their task much easier. Lastly, if you keep the bureaucrats busy enough one way or another (I suggest more large-scale public projects, and a direct stake in outward expansion), they'll stay out of economics, which wasn't their strong suit.
Hendryk said:
Follow-up to my previous post:
Something else Wu could do to sideline the nobility and widen his support base would be to protect smallholder farming property rights. The advantage is threefold:
-- people who own the land they work, as a later generation of Chinese leaders discovered, have a direct incentive in increasing production. So, more food all around.
-- the nobility makes a lousy tax base; too many exemptions, too much cheating by corrupting the tax collectors. Landowning peasants, OTOH, can more easily be taxed whether in grain or in money. So, more money for the state coffers.
-- this farming class would send at least some of its more ambitious offspring to civil service exams, thus strengthening the meritocracy, and providing the government with reliable civil servants.
I then proposed the survival of his son, Emperor Zhao, who was born in 94bc (which conveniently is when the major differences start happening in the west, so the butterflies will be getting to china right about then), and perhaps taxation of income, rather than land.
 
I'm reposting some of the stuff, since I changed the format slightly and altered a few dates.

*****

651 AUC (103 BC)
- Alexander Jannaeus succeeds Aristobulus I as King of Judea.

652 AUC
- The Romans, under the command of Gaius Marius, defeat the Teutones at Aquae Sextiae.
- The Seres [1] capture Kokand.

653 AUC
- The Romans, under Marius, defeat the Cimbri at Vercellae.
- Cleopatra III dies.
- Ptolemy Apion inherits Cyrenaica.

654 AUC
- POD Gaius Memmius, a candidate for Consul, dies of natural causes. [2]
- Tigranes II of Armenia is placed on the Armenian throne by Parthians.

655 AUC
- The Sicilian Slave Revolt is crushed.

656 AUC
- Civil war breaks out in Parthia between the current king, Mithridates II, and a rival claimant, Gotarzes I.

657 AUC
- The Romans, under the command of Quintus Caecilius Metellus Nepos, conquer Crete.

658 AUC
- Ptolemy Apion dies and wills Cyrenaica to the Roman Republic.
- Antiochus IX defeats Seleucus VI for control of the Seleucid Empire. The current King, Antiochus VIII is murdered, along with his potential heirs. [3]

659 AUC
- Nicomedes, the son of Nicomedes II, king of Bithynia, dies while traveling in Pontus.

660 AUC (94 BC)
- The Lex Livia is passed, which, among other things, extends Roman citizenship to most of the Italian allies. [4]
- Nicomedes II invades Pontus. [5]

661 AUC
- After suffering several defeats by Mithridates VI, Nicomedes requests Roman aid in their war against Pontus. The Roman Republic dispatches Lucius Cornelius Sulla to command the campaign.

662 AUC
- Emperor Wu Di of Serica opens the state examinations to all classes, and encourages those of lower classes to take the examinations. [6]

663 AUC
- Nicomedes II dies, and wills his kingdom to the Roman Republic.
- Tigranes II invades the Seleucid Empire.

664 AUC
- The Romans, under the command of Sulla, defeat the Pontians, under Mithridates VI at Nicomedia. Mithridates sues for peace, ending the first Mithridatic War.
- Antiochus IX requests Roman assistance against Tigranes II. Sulla is dispatched to assist.

665 AUC
- Sulla meets with Gotarzes and agrees to support him after the war with Armenia is concluded.

666 AUC
- The Romans, under the command of Sulla, defeat the Armenians, under Tigranes II, at Samosata. Tigranes sues for peace, ending the first Armenian War.
- The Seleucid Empire becomes a client kingdom of Rome. [7]

667 AUC
- Wu Di dies and is succeeded by his son, Zhao Di.

668 AUC
- The Roman Senate, fearful of his growing popularity, orders Sulla to disband his army and return to Rome to face charges of corruption. Sulla refuses and marches on Rome. [8]
- Quintus Sertorius is named dictator in response to Sulla's defiance. [9]
- Sulla defeats a small Senatorial army at Venusia. The survivors are massacred. [10]
- A Senatorial army, under the command of Sertorius, defeats Sulla's army at Capua. Sulla commits suicide.

669 AUC
- The Lex Julia is passed, designed to prevent any generals from attempting to take over the Republic. [11]
- Gotarzes I dies, and is succeeded by Orodes I.

670 AUC (84 BC)
- The Lex Pompeia is passed, organizing new voting tribes for the Italians.

671 AUC
- Mithridates VI and Tigranes II place a rival claimant to Ariobarzanes I on the throne of Cappadocia.

672 AUC
- Sertorius is sent with a large army to restore Ariobarzanes as king of Cappadocia, beginning the Second Mithridatic War.

673 AUC
- Mithridates II of Parthia dies and is succeeded by Phraates III.

674 AUC
- Mithridates defeats the Syrians at Antioch, and has Antiochus killed. The former Seleucid territories nominally fall under Roman rule, as per Antiochus' will.
- The Romans, under Sertorius, defeat the Pontians, under Mithridates VI, at Sinope.

675 AUC
- The Romans, under Sertorius, defeat the Pontians at Zela. However, Sertorius is killed in battle.

*****

[1] The Chinese
[2] In our timeline, Memmius' death was orchestrated by Lucius Appuleius Saturninus, a political ally of Marius. In the resulting fallout, the Senate ordered Marius to apprehend Saturninus and his followers. Marius complied and was close to peacefully solving the riots, when some of the Optimates were able to stone Saturninus to death. This incident cost Marius much of his reputation and further weakened the rule of law in the Republic.
[3] A divergence from our timeline, where Seleucus VI defeated Antiochus IX.
[4] In our timeline, Marcus Livius Drusus was a proponent of the extension of the vote to the Italians. He wished to extend citizenship to actually weaken the popular demagogues of the time, by creating a new voting force loyal to the Senate. However, he alienated both the populares and the optimates, and was assassinated. In this timeline, Marius is not discredited by Saturninus, but does wish to distance himself from the fiery tribune. He sides with Drusus, providing him with the support needed to pass, and - more importantly - enforce, his laws. With the extension of citizenship, the entire Social War is averted. With no Social War, Mithridates VI won't have the opportunity to attack Roman holdings in Asia.
[5] It is possible that Mithridates VI, king of Pontus, orchestrated the death of Nicomedes, to provoke his neighbor into war, allowing Mithridates the opportunity to weaken a Roman ally in the region.
[6] This seemingly egalitarian move is implemented to limit the power of the landed gentry.
[7] The Seleucid Empire is referred to as the Kingdom of Syria from this point on.
[8] Due to the short lived nature of this war, it is not considered a true civil war, but a mere uprising.
[9] Sertorius is a very interesting character. He was a brilliant general who set up a Republic in Spain during the various civil wars. His republic included large numbers of Celtiberian natives. Never defeated in combat, Sertorius was eventually betrayed and assassinated.
[10] The Senatorial army, though outnumbered, held off Sulla's forces for much longer than was expected. This drew grudging admiration from Sulla's troops, the eternal gratitude of the Republic, and equal fury from Sulla. After this incident, a large contingent of Sulla's troops defect.
[11] The Lex Julia mainly targets the Roman Legions. It effectively states that any soldier that takes arms against the Republic forfeits his pay, pension, and citizenship, regardless of who should win in a civil war. While this would be unenforceable in the short term, should a usurper actually succeed, the hope is that when the usurper is out of power, the law could be enforced. All loyal troops that do not already own property are guaranteed sizable tracks of land.
 
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I'm sorry to say, but I don't honestly understand where this timeline begins. What is the point of divergence, I mean what action? Where are you planning on taking it, to an imperial Rome or something else? The timeline is interesting but quite confusing for me to understand.
 
Pendragon said:
I'm sorry to say, but I don't honestly understand where this timeline begins. What is the point of divergence, I mean what action? Where are you planning on taking it, to an imperial Rome or something else? The timeline is interesting but quite confusing for me to understand.
The POD is 654 AUC (100bc). Where its going, who knows?
 
Might be a good idea to have the dates in BC/AD as well as AUC.

After all, if this is the reincarnation of the Roman TL, then Christianity will still become the dominant religion.
 

Faeelin

Banned
DominusNovus said:
[11] The Lex Julia mainly targets the Roman Legions. It effectively states that any soldier that takes arms against the Republic forfeits his pay, pension, and citizenship, regardless of who should win in a civil war. While this would be unenforceable in the short term, should a usurper actually succeed, the hope is that when the usurper is out of power, the law could be enforced. All loyal troops that do not already own property are guaranteed sizable tracks of land.

But Sulla's troops were of course fighting for the Republic, in their eyes.

And wasn't confiscation of the estates of the losing side the norm at this point anyway? Remember what Sulla did, after all.
 
Faeelin said:
But Sulla's troops were of course fighting for the Republic, in their eyes.

And wasn't confiscation of the estates of the losing side the norm at this point anyway? Remember what Sulla did, after all.
Pretty much, but this is targeted at the common soldier, and not the patricians that got proscribed whenever a conquering general wanted their property.

And the law makes it clear that, right or wrong, any soldier that marches against the Senate is guilty. Disputes in government should be solved through rhetoric, not war.
 
Ok, this a very rough draft for the world at the moment (675auc/79bc). It took a lot of effort and searching to piece this together. Of course, one good thing about so much history being murky is that its hard for any of you guys to yell at me for getting anything wrong. :cool:
The green borders are my draft borders. I do green to contrast against the current borders, to help me out.

Now, alot of borders (particularly in India) are of their respective states from slightly different years. Slightly being within 100 years of the current year. :eek:
Actually, I'm exagerating, I think the worst is the indo greek kingdom, about 70 years off.

I'm very confident with Europe, fairly confident with China and the middle east, and a tad bit confident with India. India was a lot of guess work.

Red: rome
little independent state in s. france: massilia
egypt: ptolemaic egypt
southern anatolia: cilicia
northern anatolia: pontus
central anatolia: cappadocia
israel: judea
northern iraq: osroene
eastern turkey/nw iran: armenia
indigo: parthia
pakistan: indo greek
just east of nepal: kuninda
southern central india: satavahana
northeastern india: sunga
western south india: chera
very south india: pandya
eastern south india: chola
state between sunga and satavahana: no idea, it's a blank in my reserach
or i forgot
china: han china

Anyway, any and all suggestions are not only welcome but requested. Anyway, this is the draft, its not done, but mostly done.

world 675AUC.png
 
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DominusNovus said:
Pretty much, but this is targeted at the common soldier, and not the patricians that got proscribed whenever a conquering general wanted their property.

And the law makes it clear that, right or wrong, any soldier that marches against the Senate is guilty. Disputes in government should be solved through rhetoric, not war.

The part of the law which grants pensions in the form of land to retiring soldiers should also help a great deal. Since they won't be depending on their generals to get land for them anymore, the loyalty to the Senate should increase commensurately.
 
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