I read a book about world war two. In the book it talked about a proposal that was considered in 1945 that would've split Germany into "East Germany", under Soviet occupation, and "West Germany" under British and American Occupation. What if this had actually happened? Would East Germany become communist like the rest of Eastern Europe? And what about the West? Would reunification ever be possible, and if so, what would be the cultural and political consequences of a german reunification?
DBWI: Germany split after the war?
- Thread starter ArKhan
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You'd need a stronger Soviet war effort for this to work; maybe avoiding the fall of Moscow in 1941 would work? That buggered up the Soviet war effort for a good six months. If Stalin is in a stronger position, perhaps even occupying Berlin, then he's in a much stronger position to demand his own (real, not an honor guard in Berlin) occupation zone in Germany.
I have no idea how a split would work; maybe something like the Japanese one? Japan's a much different culture than Germany, so I have no idea how it would work out. Maybe some kind of Communist Brandenburg/Saxon/Prussian identity? That would be weird.
I have no idea how a split would work; maybe something like the Japanese one? Japan's a much different culture than Germany, so I have no idea how it would work out. Maybe some kind of Communist Brandenburg/Saxon/Prussian identity? That would be weird.
Any divisions like that of Japan would probably be negotiated rather than enforced with boots on the ground, I mean, it's commonly accepted that all the Allies stuck with the final agreements they signed in Baghdad in '43 after a year of negotiations. Honour among world powers and all that.
I think Stalin might be more interested in his own slice of Germany if the West didn't oblige him by demilitarising it for two decades allowing the USSR to build up its own buffer, and assigning the lion's share of reparation payments to the USSR. If he felt like his goals wouldn't be accomplished, he might have insisted on more.
So I think it's plausible, the negotiations leading up to the conference in Baghdad is all you'd have to change, really.
I think Stalin might be more interested in his own slice of Germany if the West didn't oblige him by demilitarising it for two decades allowing the USSR to build up its own buffer, and assigning the lion's share of reparation payments to the USSR. If he felt like his goals wouldn't be accomplished, he might have insisted on more.
So I think it's plausible, the negotiations leading up to the conference in Baghdad is all you'd have to change, really.
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If you're talking about the same book that I'm reading, you could do yourself a favor and burn it. The entire idea about carving up Germany was as ridiculous as the Nazi invasion plans for Britain (Unmentionable Sea Mammal). Have you read that part about carving up Berlin as well? Can you imagine a capitalist West-Berlin deep in the heart of a communist East-Germany? How the hell would that work? Let alone the fact that it would require ASB-intervention to see Stalin agreeing to this and just donating part of Berlin to the Western Allies.
I don't know who came up with that moronic proposal in the first place or what they were smoking when they came up with that plan, but it's a stupid idea that would never work in real life.
Will Kürlich Kerl
Banned
This might see a permanent damage to the German identity, because that means that Hanover and the other northwestern parts of Germany become once more British. Great Britain might keep parts of it. Furthermore, with the eastern parts of Germany (Saxony & Brandenburg) now communist, we might see a distinct Saxon identity rising. Eventually, you get the same result as OTL Japan, with a couple different identities. Three identities, Saxon, Hanoverian (with distinct British influence), and Bavarian, will probably develop, completely reversing the efforts of Otto von Bismarck in the late 1860s.
However, this POD is bordering on ASB, because Stalin wasn't that interested in Central. He was satisfied with his gains in Eastern Europe and the Balkans, and wanted to have more clout in Asia, to prevent the rise of Nationalist China and Unified India as potential rivals to the Soviet Union.
On a Serious Note
In OTL joint occupation of Germany was originally on the planning table. That fell apart for various reasons & the partitioned occupation was agreed on for the"interm". This temporary arrignment lasted only 46 years
Had the Soviet diplomats been a little more clever & subtle, & their masters taken the long view a joint occupation was quite possible, at least for a couple years. How that might have played out into a unified Germany for the next five decades comes through multiple possibilities.
Back to the WI
The oddest part of a partitioned or dual Germany is two different German armies might be developed, one a 'communist' army & the other some sort of Allied (?) puppet. This is assuming the Red Army only occupies the easter portion of Germany. All that implies some sort of military as well as political frontier. Tough to imagine but there is a sort of weird logic behind at least part of this.
In OTL joint occupation of Germany was originally on the planning table. That fell apart for various reasons & the partitioned occupation was agreed on for the"interm". This temporary arrignment lasted only 46 years
Had the Soviet diplomats been a little more clever & subtle, & their masters taken the long view a joint occupation was quite possible, at least for a couple years. How that might have played out into a unified Germany for the next five decades comes through multiple possibilities.
Back to the WI
The oddest part of a partitioned or dual Germany is two different German armies might be developed, one a 'communist' army & the other some sort of Allied (?) puppet. This is assuming the Red Army only occupies the easter portion of Germany. All that implies some sort of military as well as political frontier. Tough to imagine but there is a sort of weird logic behind at least part of this.
Precisely. The abrupt proposal from the Soviet diplomats to partition Germany faded just as quickly when the French failed to support it. Some historians claim the Soviet proposal was just a gambit aimed at inserting a wedge between the western Allies. & instantly dropped when DeGaulle failed to bite.
Another point is the joint occupation allowed the Red Army to loot a larger portion of Germany through 1948. If the Red Army was confined to some sort of Eastern portion they would have failed to 'accquire' any of the German technology or scientists. In the spring of 1945 the nazis evacuated about everything of use from the eastern provinces. They never would have accquired things like rocket motors, nuclear physicists, advanced aircraft designs, ect... The Red Army would have been poking through the leftover rubbish in Prussian, Pomerania, Silesia, Saxony ect...
In all fairness, they had some pretty good ones of their own (well. not aircraft engines, but everything else).
Now I don't remember where I read this, but I think many of the German specialists later escaped after foreign travel rules were relaxed following de-Stalinization and before the old guard could retrench, and some were allowed to go back to Germany after getting experience in large Soviet experimental facilities and agencies. This was pretty crucial in developing the German space program after Germany de-facto aligned with the West.
Maybe a divided Germany would be too focused on other things instead, especially if, as people said, strong regional identities develop. Saxon pride and all that? No time to sent anyone to space.
They almost did do it in 1948 but it was rejected at the last minute; it probably would have been more doable than Japan(suggested by MacArthur), though, for a variety of reasons.
@imperialaquila: Sorry, but dividing Japan is ASB this late in the game. Ignoring.
Well, considering how poorly the communists did compared to the capitalists in other countries that where split in this way (Japan, Korea, Veitnam) is it safe to assume that the East would be much poorer then the West? And how does this effect the internal politics of Germany? Obviously, the election map will be changed significantly by the loss of the eastern voters, and eastern candidates.
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Will Kürlich Kerl
Banned
Not if they unify only after a few years, resulting in a neutral Germany in between the West and the Soviets.
OOC: Sorry, you don't get to do that, once something's established it's set in stone, unless of course it's something completly ridiculous like Hannibal rising from the dead with an army of zombie elephants to attack Mussolini, which this is not.
Well, that depends. Yes, most likely Germany will remain neutral, but if the Soviet Union collapses like in OTL, then a reunified Germany might become an American ally, like in OTL
Well, Germany is split into Germany, Austria, and Prussia. Of course, that doesn't really fit what the OP means.
Will Kürlich Kerl
Banned
Well, Germany is split into Germany, Austria, and Prussia. Of course, that doesn't really fit what the OP means.
Prussia doesn't really count anymore.
Of course it does. After all, it only became <50% Germans in 2009, and the largest minority (Poles) are only 22%, and German is the official language.
I'm aware. Still, they mostly speak German and most of the population is ethnically German (if culturally and geopolitically more aligned with the Nordic and Baltic states)
OOC: Late in the game? I also said that Moscow fell in 1941; that's certainly enough of a POD to justify changes in the Pacific in 1945/6.
IC:
Prussia doesn't really count, it's hardly like Austria. It spent too much time as an SSR to count as German anymore. It's less German than Switzerland.