Challenge:EU-Commonwealth Space Program

Your challenge is to have a joint European- Commonwealth of Nations space program with a POD of anytime between 1946 and 2013. Bonus points if this space program lands on the Moon by 2018, and super bonus points if the joint EU-Commonwealth space program lands on Mars by 2018.
 
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Well for starters you'd have to get rid of C. de Gaulle, since he twice vetoed the UK entry into the EEC, or maybe a sort of mini-cold-war between the British and Americans so that he accepts that the UK isn't really going to be a trojan horse for American industry.

IMO Australia would make a good test-ground for the rockets, enough good engineers to keep a facility maintained, plus wide open, mostly unpopulated spaces to launch over, and if a rocket does break up the bits are easier to find than if you have to dredge about underwater.
 
I was going to say that if ESA unmanned would count, there's this which would have landed on the moon by 2018, but it looks like it got canned for budget reasons late last year. I'd say that keeping the UK in ELDO really is one of the best potential PoDs, perhaps if the Cora 1 and Cora 2 program, which was supposed to test the Coralie and Astris second and third stages for Europa in separate ground-launches. They were going to first test Coralie, then once it worked reliably they were going to stack Astris on top for a two-stage suborbital flight. As it happened, they only flew Cora 1 flights, of just the ground-launched Cora. 2 failed, including the final flight, and failed in ways that Coralie went on to fail in actually all-up Europa flights flown on top of the Blue Streak first stage. Make that test program more honest so it actually identifies and solves the problems with the Europa, and you've got a base for a larger, better funded European space program.
 

Cook

Banned
Blue-streak-launch-at-woomera.png


That is a Blue Streak being launched from Woomera. I have stood on that very launch platform, it is huge (the size of an oil rig) and juts out over the salt lake.
 
e of pi and Cook get it in one. The simplest and most obvious POD is to work out a method of having Europa successfully launch before the program was moved to Kourou. You would probably need increased political support in Australia for maintaining the launch site at Woomera, though, because the move to Kourou is advantageous from a logistical (only have to cross the Atlantic rather than go to the antipodes) and performance (lower latitudes boost rocket performance, especially to geosynchronous orbit, which is why they abandoned Woomera OTL) standpoint. It would also be helpful to figure out a way to get at least Canada and New Zealand involved...
 
I prefer the one in the Borders...

...But for some engineering clamps, the Blue Streak could have launched along the Norwegian Sea to off Svalbard (Spitzbergen). No need to go to Oz.

A launch malfunction once she left RAF Spadeadam would have gone fast enough to have landed in the North Sea (although, if you want to install a retro, we might be able to nail Salmond).:D

Isn't it amazing that the French launch failures vanished as soon as they controlled the space programme?

*Gets hot under the collar at UK space policies after Black Arrow*:mad:

Ah, me...:rolleyes:
 
Well for starters you'd have to get rid of C. de Gaulle, since he twice vetoed the UK entry into the EEC, or maybe a sort of mini-cold-war between the British and Americans so that he accepts that the UK isn't really going to be a trojan horse for American industry.
???Why would DeGaulle veto uk-eec space cooperation? He didnt otl.

Ya. Getting Europa to work, ie fixing the french and german stages would likely be necessary, and a good start.

Aussie contributions could be largely ground support.

Canada. Hmmm. Otl Canada has very much been a bit player, with massive brain drain to the States, partly caused by the collapse of the canadian aerospace industry. Have more problems with canadians getting us visas, maybe due to a spat over cuba or something, and there might be more interest in a non-us program. We were, for a while a member of esa, so its not unreasonable.

India also has lots of cheap engineers.
 

Cook

Banned
Cook, may I use that photo in my TL?
No problem from me, the photo was taken before I was born. I'll have to dig out my photo of the launch platform and scan it if I can ever find it again. I went there in '96.
 

abc123

Banned
No problem from me, the photo was taken before I was born. I'll have to dig out my photo of the launch platform and scan it if I can ever find it again. I went there in '96.

Thanks.
I presumed that, but better to ask...;)
 
How about launching from a sea based platform?

[FONT=&quot]In 'Rebuilding the Royal Navy', by D K Brown and George Moore, Brown mentions a fellow naval architect called Eric Tupper being part of a team that was developing a catamaran to launch space vehicles.

This appears to have been at the time the Type 82 destroyer was being designed so this makes it the 60’s.

[/FONT]
 
How about launching from a sea based platform?

[FONT=&quot]In 'Rebuilding the Royal Navy', by D K Brown and George Moore, Brown mentions a fellow naval architect called Eric Tupper being part of a team that was developing a catamaran to launch space vehicles.

This appears to have been at the time the Type 82 destroyer was being designed so this makes it the 60’s.

[/FONT]

If there was potential thought about something of this manner why not an Oil rig system like Sea Launch uses today rather than a Catamaran?
 
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A launch malfunction once she left RAF Spadeadam would have gone fast enough to have landed in the North Sea (although, if you want to install a retro, we might be able to nail Salmond).:D

The North Sea oil rigs put paid to that flight path.
 
If there was potential thought about something of this manner why not an Oil rig system like Sea Launch uses today rather than a Catamaran?

There's a clear advantage to a platform one can move.

And a clear advantage to one that is stable, not wobbling around in the waves, which I imagine favors a fixed rig!

I'd think it might be hard to find a good, lower-latitude launch location where the water is shallow enough for a rig to work. There's quite a lot of continental shelf off the British Isles to the west, but not I think far enough west to give Europe safety in case of eastward launches, and the edge of the shelf tends northwest toward Greenland IIRC, so to edge westward they'd have to go north too. OK for polar launches, but many of the things one wants to do want tropical or equatorial orbits.

Kourou is really hard to beat for a European launch consortium! I appreciate wanting Australia involved but it's literally the other side of the world; only if the Aussies were putting up serious funds and deeply committed would it make sense for a Europe-based project to persist there. It makes more sense for the Ozzies to team up with Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia and that lot than to be Europe's spaceport.

Of course in a thread positing a European consortium, I see little reason to stop there and wonder why it shouldn't include these potential East Asian partners?

Then again the OP asks for the joint program to date back to the immediate post-war period and the very beginnings of European cooperation, and in those days none of these "Asian Tigers" were serious partners in anything technological; it wouldn't be realistic to invite them in until the 1970s. But that's about when the European program did shift OTL from Australia to French Guiana as a launch site, so maybe a two stage deal--the Europeans start the program, develop the Australian launch site, then with Kourou being brought on line and the Europeans focusing operations there, the East Asian nations are invited in one by one, starting with Japan, to continue to use and develop the Australian site; the British split their efforts between the two sites.

So the total scheme is--an ocean-based northern site in the North Atlantic, conceivably on Iceland, for polar launches; Kourou for equatorial launches, Woomera for tropical middle inclination launches (notably for Lunar and Solar system exploration), experimental launches (to exploit the ease of crash investigation noted above) and East Asian projects, all under one international organization that is largely split between European and Asian wings, with the British and Australians straddling the divide. Rather than go to Iceland for polar launches, the eastern wing might develop another launch site in southern Tasmania or on the south coast of New Zealand, and if Woomera is not quite equatorial enough I daresay some Indonesian island might do.

Hmm, at that rate, this global body might just split into two, a European and Asian one, especially if the Europeans can access Cape Canaveral for some intermediate inclination launches; otherwise they might develop something in Brazil or the Caribbean.
 
There's a clear advantage to a platform one can move.

And a clear advantage to one that is stable, not wobbling around in the waves, which I imagine favors a fixed rig!

I'd think it might be hard to find a good, lower-latitude launch location where the water is shallow enough for a rig to work.
You'd be surprised about the stability a semi-submersible rig can offer. Basically, you have large ballast tanks that extend below the surface, and expose minimal area to surface wave action, thus minimizing motion. You get most of the benefits of a fixed platform, without needing to actually sink supports to the seabed in thousands of feet of water.

800px-Deepwater_drilling_systems_2.png


They're pretty common in drilling, and Sea Launch (the only active ocean-launch setup) uses a converted semi-submersible rig, the Ocean Odyssey. It's nice for them because they can tow it into port and service the rocket for flight there, instead of having to have all the integration and checkout facilities out in the middle of the ocean, just a much more limited subset.
 
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