AH Challenge: Indigenous Christian Philippines
- Thread starter CMBA
- Start date
Just to be clear, you mean something like the Ethiopian Orthodox Church rather than the Catholic Church that was which was brought in mostly by the Spanish? Basically you need an analogue of Frumentius then, someone to bring word of and spread Christianity - best bet is to target royalty or influential leaders - early enough for it to develop by itself and become deeply embedded.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
I'm not sure if having Nestorianism take root in the Philippines, although Ill Bethisad had a Nestorian Philippines. If the islands that make up OTL Philippines were to fall under the Yuan Dynasty, then there could be a good chance for Nestorian missionaries to proselytize there. Yes, I know that the Nestorians are not really the majority even in Yuan China under the Mongols, but there were a good sizeable population there.
Yuan did not conquer the Philippines or any part of it because it was back water to them.
Have some Malaysia and Indonesia states convert to Nestorianism instead of Islam, I think if one of the Sri Vijayan substates converts to Nestorianism, you have a better chance.
Flocculencio
Donor
You need to make the Miaphysite Christians somewhat better at Evangelising. IOTL they set up shop in South India, integrated and formed their own little community but were utterly uninterested in further conversions. If this wasn't the case you might see a spread of Miaphysite Christianity based in India moving out to the traditionally South Indian-influenced cultures of SE Asia
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
When did the Miaphysite Christians arrive in India? More importantly, would the islands that make up modern Indonesia become the dominant power instead?
Neostorianism would have to be the major power in India and across the Indian Ocean for Indonesia to fully convert, and what stops Islam from taking them out like it did Hinduism in Indonsia? An even then, the Phillipenes are off the main trade routes, and so are not as connected to Indonesia. Even when most of Indonesia converted to Islam, only the regions held by the Sulu Sultanate are Muslim now.
I think this is likely. Chinese traders and their families could immigrate to the islands, and along with Nestorian missionaries attempt to convert the indigenous well before the Europeans come. Having the Magellan blown off course to Japan or southward may buy the islands more time.
Also, Islam has also done well outside the Sulu Sultanate. The Kingdoms of Tondo (OTL Manila) and the adjacent towns and villages all have converted to Islam well before the Spaniards came.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
You mean the Chinese traders and Nestorian missionaries could migrate to Luzon Island? Only one more question: would they actually do it in the times of the Yuan Mongols?
The only places with Muslim Majority now are the areas held by the Sulu Sultanate, and Muslims only form 9% of the population.
Kingdom of Tondo was converted to islam by force by the Bolkiahs and whole of Luzon was basically under the influence of Bruneian Empire and they were hated there, before that the Sri Vijayan scions, the Tondo Dynasty were very much Pagan, the nobility of Luzon were related to the Sri Vijayan nobles and their arrival is a part of the legends in Luzon.
The Nestorians did proselytize their faith in the Philippines but the Question is how could they survive.
In my timeline, A Surprising Discovery, the Nestorians did survive in Luzon as a minority hostile to catholics.
Yes. However, just like as someone said earlier, the Chinese thinks that the indigenous are just backwater barbarians, so the only interaction between them is primarily in trade. Only in the Spanish times did the Chinese have an interest in the isles. I have read that a Chinese monarch once attempted to establish a colony on the island. Another is that notorious Chinese pirate Limahong who once established a petty kingdom on the island, bringing lots of his countrymen only to be ousted by a coalition of early Spanish and indigenous warriors.
I think the most possible way, although way too cliched, is an exodus of Nestorian Chinese because of persecution in China, or the Mongols decide to exterminate them. History provides that Chinese traders have known the islands for many years, and you could insert them into the group, sail into the islands, found a colony, a minor POD concerning the indigenous welcoming the Chinese more openly, and start converting the various tribes.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
This could result in a Nestorian-dominated, but Sinicized 'Philippines' though.
I think giving Luzon an earlier increase in Population before the Spanish arrive will make Luzon as unconquerable as Mindanao was OTL since the Lowlands of Luzon were quite Homogeneous and speak languages similar to each other except for Ilocos and Southern Luzon, an earlier surge in population will cause those languages to unite as one and foster a creation of a united identity just like what I did in the map I made before.
According to legend, in the first century AD. Saint Thomas went to India and evangelized there, which is why it's the "Mar Tomas" (=Saint Thomas) church.
In other words, very, very early.
There were Christians in India most likely before there were Christians in Britain, Germany, or Scandinavia.
However, as Flocc says, they were mostly uninterested in evangelism and, having established a stable community, settled down until the Portuguese disturbed them in the 17th and 18th centuries.
However, it would not be too implausible for them to be roused to evangelism by some individual leader or theological movement at some point in that history. At that point, they would probably try to evangelize in India, which might cause consternation for the Hindu rajahs in South India.
The best time for this to happen would be from 500-1100 CE, when Indian influence was at its peak in SE Asia. If they annoy an Indian monarch enough, they (or some part of the community) could be expelled from India.
It would not be implausible for them to travel with Indian traders and merchants along the routes to Indonesia, and then to the Philippines.
If they are exceedingly lucky (and I don't know enough about the Philippines to say what conditions might make them lucky) then they'll have success evangelizing to the Filipinos and you end up with an Indigenous Christian community in the Philippines by the time the Spanish arrive in the 16th century.
Unlikely? Sure. But stranger things have happened.
Cheers,
Ganesha
P.S. The presence of a large Christian nation just south of Japan and India might have some fascinating ramifications there. See The Genocide for a long treatment.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
You may have a bigger Miaphysite Christian power in what is now modern Indonesia, though the *Philippines would also be one as well. I'm not sure if the Spaniards would still colonize the islands, but chances are that the Portuguese may end up as their overlords.
Most likely they just allow the Portuguese to gain ports in their land just like they did to Goa and Malacca.