I mean for anyone? What if all horses and their relatives, such as camels, died out before getting to Afroeurasia?
What if no horse?
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First, camels and all other 'split hoof' animals aren't all that close relatives to horses... so, maybe explain a little more about just which animals are missing in this ATL? The relatives of horses are burros, onagers, and zebras.
Native Americans wouldn't have any tame horses to wreak havoc on the West US with (the Late 1800s) but then again neither would the United States or its European Colonizers.
It'd probably just slow things down a bit. No one civilization has all the horses, so no one has the advantages. It would just lead to a lot of sore feet and slower armies, communication, etc. until the invention of the automobile and quick, nimble boats.
An interesting cultural side effect is that we no longer measure things in "horsepower".
It'd probably just slow things down a bit. No one civilization has all the horses, so no one has the advantages. It would just lead to a lot of sore feet and slower armies, communication, etc. until the invention of the automobile and quick, nimble boats.
An interesting cultural side effect is that we no longer measure things in "horsepower".
I feel a great disturbance in the board, as if a million butterflies cried out, and were suddenly silenced.
The importance of the horse as a cultural status symbol in many societies, not to mention the radical changes to military development, butterfly all of that away. Society and history would develop very, very, differently, not to mention the things you described.
People breed dogs really big and ride on those.
On a more serious note, the Inca had the world's fastest communication until the telegraph with no horses, just their runners... but they also had the advantage of coca leaves, I suppose... but my point is that people may circumvent these things to some extent.
Cavalry will probably be much less of a big deal... Armies, merchants, dignitaries/diplomats, etc, will still move at about the same speed, though, they'll need oxen or something to pull their carts. Even by purely human power, that's more the kind of thing that depends on the level of infrastructure.
Also people might have more of these around if there were no horses.
On a more serious note, the Inca had the world's fastest communication until the telegraph with no horses, just their runners... but they also had the advantage of coca leaves, I suppose... but my point is that people may circumvent these things to some extent.
Cavalry will probably be much less of a big deal... Armies, merchants, dignitaries/diplomats, etc, will still move at about the same speed, though, they'll need oxen or something to pull their carts. Even by purely human power, that's more the kind of thing that depends on the level of infrastructure.
Also people might have more of these around if there were no horses.
twovultures
Donor
No horse really changes warfare, which changes a whole bunch of other things in turn. No Mongol/Turkish/Possibly Hunnish hordes, and no rise of feudalism based on a class of cavalry warriors. You may also see more/faster development of maritime technology, as over water trade will become even more important.
No Chariots in the Middle East would be a big change no Aryan invasion into India. In general I would think coastal societies would be a lot better off.
No Mongols
That's massive in and of itself. Take out the other horse nomads from Chimerians to Huns to Turks to even the Manchu to some extent. That's even bigger. Basically the appearance of deadly barbarians of the era isn't as big a deal, or least takes allot longer to start screwing things up.
That's massive in and of itself. Take out the other horse nomads from Chimerians to Huns to Turks to even the Manchu to some extent. That's even bigger. Basically the appearance of deadly barbarians of the era isn't as big a deal, or least takes allot longer to start screwing things up.
Indo-European peoples probably never move out of the Ukraine.
Cattle and agriculture were introduced to Europe by farmers from Anatolia through Greece. It's possible that they spoke an Afro-Asiatic language, but there's no way of proving that.
Horses are great winter meat animals--they're smart enough to clear the snow away with their legs for food and break ice with their hooves to get water. Cattle won't bother trying and sheep will just bloody their muzzles in their ignorance. So without this meat animal, you'd slow the development of agricultural societies in general in northern Eurasia (less so once you get west of the Vistula--horses were introduced there by the Indo-Europeans rather late in the game).
Carts pulled by donkeys and oxen with nose-rings were invented in the Middle East even without the horse. Those will likely spread, especially if the Sumerians or someone else come up with the bit, to replace those inefficient rings. But there's no chariot ITTL, and cavalry is restricted to camels and elephants. Bactrian camels might be domesticated in place of the horse--while not so good for warfare or fast riding as the horse, they fit the winter meat role well enough. They've been clocked at a peak speed that could make them useful for fast rides, if one selectively breeds for endurance. It's possible that, instead of an Indo-European tide, we could see a camel-borne expansion from Mongolia.
Cattle and agriculture were introduced to Europe by farmers from Anatolia through Greece. It's possible that they spoke an Afro-Asiatic language, but there's no way of proving that.
Horses are great winter meat animals--they're smart enough to clear the snow away with their legs for food and break ice with their hooves to get water. Cattle won't bother trying and sheep will just bloody their muzzles in their ignorance. So without this meat animal, you'd slow the development of agricultural societies in general in northern Eurasia (less so once you get west of the Vistula--horses were introduced there by the Indo-Europeans rather late in the game).
Carts pulled by donkeys and oxen with nose-rings were invented in the Middle East even without the horse. Those will likely spread, especially if the Sumerians or someone else come up with the bit, to replace those inefficient rings. But there's no chariot ITTL, and cavalry is restricted to camels and elephants. Bactrian camels might be domesticated in place of the horse--while not so good for warfare or fast riding as the horse, they fit the winter meat role well enough. They've been clocked at a peak speed that could make them useful for fast rides, if one selectively breeds for endurance. It's possible that, instead of an Indo-European tide, we could see a camel-borne expansion from Mongolia.
I for one welcome our new Siberian overlords.
nice.
But back to the point, horses were domesticated ~~4000BC. So with the most conservative of butterflies, you still just made a POD before any recorded history, thereby rewriting everything. You could argue for the rise of Sumer, Egypt, Akkad, and the Indus River Civilizations, but beyond that it's all different.
This is especially true along the Eurasian steppe which will now be almost impossible to inhabit because horses are so integral to living there.
Elephants may of been used. they would be harder to tame but they would of been able to travel long distances but its more easy then it would be on foot.
Since you just removed a species the question is what, if anything, evolves to take their place. Once you answer that there are two questions.
Horses had two uses, as work and war animals. As work animals they can be replaced by existing species. You can have oxen or donkeys (if those exist) pull carts, ploughs..... As war animals they really can't be replaced as no other species has similar combination of characteristics. If there is nothing that replaces horses you may get chariots pulled by donkeys who are specially bred and trained. But they will be less effective.
Horses had two uses, as work and war animals. As work animals they can be replaced by existing species. You can have oxen or donkeys (if those exist) pull carts, ploughs..... As war animals they really can't be replaced as no other species has similar combination of characteristics. If there is nothing that replaces horses you may get chariots pulled by donkeys who are specially bred and trained. But they will be less effective.
From the OP it seems there is to be no horses, donkeys, mules, zebras
There is also to be no Camels, alpacas, llamas
This rings alot of problems as a question arises of what happened to them all?
We need to know when they died out as if it happened too far back then that will change the whole evolutionary history of this planet which gets rewritten as horses have existed in some form for 22 million years.
Without them its highly likely a replacement species of different stock evolves in their place(possibly from Deers ancestors) and keeps history much the same.
But if no replacement arises then it may even change human evolutionary history.
If they just went extinct then that is easier to deal with as long as the extinction event happened rather recently. Within the last 100,000 years as not to impair human evolution.
There is also to be no Camels, alpacas, llamas
This rings alot of problems as a question arises of what happened to them all?
We need to know when they died out as if it happened too far back then that will change the whole evolutionary history of this planet which gets rewritten as horses have existed in some form for 22 million years.
Without them its highly likely a replacement species of different stock evolves in their place(possibly from Deers ancestors) and keeps history much the same.
But if no replacement arises then it may even change human evolutionary history.
If they just went extinct then that is easier to deal with as long as the extinction event happened rather recently. Within the last 100,000 years as not to impair human evolution.
Pulled carriages are probably going to be used more. Pulled by dogs, any type of deer (reindeer, elk or moose), other humans, oxes.
I don't see people riding bizons or rhino's...
The elephant would be an expensive animal to ride with all over the world. Don't see that as practical.
What about cows? They might be able to breed them as a riding species.
I don't see people riding bizons or rhino's...
The elephant would be an expensive animal to ride with all over the world. Don't see that as practical.
What about cows? They might be able to breed them as a riding species.