The Birth of a One World Empire

scholar

Banned
I wish to do something close to impossible: A One World Empire. Under most conditions this would readily be seen as ASB. Even all encompassing religions and ideologies are destined to fracture, any government (certainly in modern times) would be almost uselessly decentralized to even control the better part of a continent, let alone six.

And yet some of my earliest ideas revolved around PODs before Christ showed up. One of them involved a continually expanding Persian empire, with periods of retraction and growth leading to a net growth until the empire evolves to the point where the Persian culture and identity consumes surrounding cultures, creating hybrid spin-off cultures even where Persia never reached simply through the sheer mass and wealth of its presence. Each part of the empire would essentially operate independently from one another except in the area of taxes. The situation would degrade and civil wars and rebellions would be common in the beginning, but as rebellions continually get put down and a number of different administrative capitals show up scattered where they are needed to be throughout that the empire is kept together. This largely also comes through its sheer weight, size, and cultural similarities.

Persia could get, realistically, about as large as France/Spain to Eastern India, with tributary states surrounding it. It is just that the larger it became, and more decentralized it became, the less I felt they could realistically expand and maintain cohesion. Then again, I am talking about realism when the empire might as well be Rome at its height combined with Alexander's empire and the Mauryan Empire, plus a tremendous amount of client states surrounding it. Now this is possible, and can be done reasonably without ASB, but it just seemed silly and ultimately never accomplished what I wanted.

Other candidates that I've now more or less dismissed:
Rome
Hellenistic Civilization
Habsburgs
Caliphate
Spain
Great Britain
International Socialism

Each of them had the potential to do what I wanted, but either ran into similar problems or ultimately stretched plausibility too much that it broke.

So now I'm down to three that I'm looking into:
Mongol Empire
Russian Empire
China

On their own, any one of those would probably not be fantastic candidates. China had strong cultural cohesion, but its expansionism was all what we would consider somewhat localized and every mitigating factor cemented it where it was, but that is also why it has an important part of what I'm looking for. No matter how much it was torn apart, by itself or by others, it pulled itself together again. The Mongols could conquer, but not hold forever. In many ways the Mongols were akin to Alexander, and suffer from similar problems. The Russian Empire was one of the better candidates for my objective, similar to the Habsburgs or the British, but ultimately they did not advance socially and industrially alongside western europe and fell behind. Solving that may help expand their position considerably, bbut they seem much more like a Eurasian Empire than anything else.

So why not combine the three of them?
 
A world empire is probably not manageable until modern technology is available - probably post 1945 technology, because you'd probably need atomic weapons to be able to deal with all the rebellions... :)

Bruce
 
I wish to do something close to impossible: A One World Empire. Under most conditions this would readily be seen as ASB.
Isnt that OTL? Most empires we've had so far have been limited to one world as far as i know. :p

edit: Okay more seriously, im trying to think of a way to overcome an issue that their will always be more people conquered than their would be in the ruling nation. ALong with technological problems thats just a recipe for disaster.
 
Well, if you have a China which successfully colonizes and assimilates SE Asia and the Americas, plus it gets the demographic boost of industrializing first...

Bruce
 
I think B_Munro is right. A world empire is probably doable with Atomic Weapons and modern methods of delivery. We have developed increasingly complex and successful means of killing each other.

The only problem with this scenario is the One World Empire will consist of whoever is left standing after everyone else has been wiped out.

The other option is a more gradual and peaceful transition of what we're slowly achieving now. With the United Nations now covering almost every nation on earth, along with a (theoretical) agreement with the UN Charter. This means that almost every nation is covered under international law. A bit of a stretch I concede and as we have seen in the past international law isn't equally applied (Nicaragua v United States).
 
No mention of a United States that decides Manifest Destiny applies to, well, everywhere? Given the right circumstances, they'd certainly a shot.
 
No mention of a United States that decides Manifest Destiny applies to, well, everywhere? Given the right circumstances, they'd certainly a shot.

It's not going to happen democratically unless you get rid of US racism, which requires a POD well before the formation of the US, and which changes things enough that there's unlikely to be anything like the US. Undemocratically? That's Decades of Darkness, and inevitably will lead to combinations against the US which will prevent it from expanding beyond the Americas.

(How the hell do they assimilate China, anyway?)

Bruce

PS - of course, a democratic US which is actually out to get pre-existing new member states would be an interesting scenario if unlikely to take place until well along into the 20th century, and wouldn't lead to a world empire...

Edit: I see Elfwine ninja'd me with his much pithier argument... :D
 
Interesting that everyone implies that a one world empire requires overwhelming force rather than consent. There has to be a pay off for such a vast concept to succeed, in the past the best pay offs have been economic & security. I think the best hope of a world empire would be an extraterrestial threat, but I guess you'd have to move the thread to ASB.
 
Interesting that everyone implies that a one world empire requires overwhelming force rather than consent. There has to be a pay off for such a vast concept to succeed, in the past the best pay offs have been economic & security. I think the best hope of a world empire would be an extraterrestial threat, but I guess you'd have to move the thread to ASB.

Economic and security yes, after you've been conquered. The simple fact is that when you make logical arguments for and against membership of an empire, or try to assign weighting to the different factors, the sheer desire for independence tends to end up more "valuable" then any other factor. I can think of virtually no times in history when a country has voluntarily surrendered its own independence in exchange for a better existence under a different country. It's only after you've been conquered that the innate urge to rule yourself tends to die down and people start to accept where they are. In the minds of men, when you are independent then being the ruler of your own destiny is always far preferable to economic strength and personal security. That's why conquest is necessary.
 
Economic and security yes, after you've been conquered. The simple fact is that when you make logical arguments for and against membership of an empire, or try to assign weighting to the different factors, the sheer desire for independence tends to end up more "valuable" then any other factor. I can think of virtually no times in history when a country has voluntarily surrendered its own independence in exchange for a better existence under a different country.

Unification of Germany?

Bruce
 
Unification of Germany?

Bruce

The German states had no history of independence, the idea of being governed over by a German Emperor was 1000 years old already, it was only the level of power that Emperor had which was changing. Besides, as said above there were a number of wars to bring certain states into the union.
 

scholar

Banned
I know that without at least semi-modern technology a one world empire is highly unlikely, but there is always something the possibility to set the stage and accomplish something of a hegemony or dual hegemony in which case a war or two is all it would take for the world to be directly or indirectly under that empire with complete integration capable of occurring later on.

With that in mind, I have something of a rough outline to work with.
 
The German states had no history of independence, the idea of being governed over by a German Emperor was 1000 years old already, it was only the level of power that Emperor had which was changing. Besides, as said above there were a number of wars to bring certain states into the union.

Some of them yes, some of them no. Let's not move the goalposts.

Some states joined the Roman empire voluntarily (although I suppose you can argue that the implicit threat was there)

The early Swiss Confederation (although I suppose you can use the HRE again or claim a Confederation is not a country)

The United States (although I suppose you can substitute King George for the Holy Roman Emperor)

North and South Yemen

And then there are dynastic unions such as Aragon and Castile, or Poland-Lithuania: Kalmar Union, although I suppose you can argue it wasn't united enough.


Bruce
 
Maybe Russia gets even more thrashed in WWII, leaving the USA the undeniable global superpower half-a-century earlier. With much of the world in ruins, and no Communists to oppose, the USA persues something of an alternative to the Marhshall Plan/UN: creation of a world spanning democracy, integrating the world bit by bit peacefully, and with none to oppose it (or the nuclear weapons) up to the present day.
 
I can think of virtually no times in history when a country has voluntarily surrendered its own independence in exchange for a better existence under a different country. It's only after you've been conquered that the innate urge to rule yourself tends to die down and people start to accept where they are. In the minds of men, when you are independent then being the ruler of your own destiny is always far preferable to economic strength and personal security. That's why conquest is necessary.

Off the top of my head, countries/entities that have voluntarily given up their independence:

Botswana. Saw what was happening around them, decided they wanted no part of Cecil Rhodes megalomania or Germany, and directly petitioned the British government to join the British Empire.

The Miskto Kingdom. Begged the British to absorb them ... and were rejected.
 
I'll be brief here.

So now I'm down to three that I'm looking into:
Mongol Empire
Russian Empire
China

All three were drastically different, and although each had their strengths, they also had their own shortcomings.

On their own, any one of those would probably not be fantastic candidates. China had strong cultural cohesion, but its expansionism was all what we would consider somewhat localized and every mitigating factor cemented it where it was, but that is also why it has an important part of what I'm looking for. No matter how much it was torn apart, by itself or by others, it pulled itself together again.

China was consistently under threat from the nomads to the north, and there was a complex balance of power that continued to exist within Central and East Asia from around 500 BC to 1270 AD, although some fragments of the system still continued afterwards. The state also reached its heights in terms of territorial extent under the Yuan and Qing, which were founded by outsiders, leading to resentment among the governed, and both failed to make any significant gains into Southeast Asia due to stiff resistance. Although the Tang, which wasn't exactly founded by an "insider" either, came close in terms of territorial possessions, the An Shi Rebellion essentially demonstrated that rapid expansion went hand in hand with assigning large amounts of territory to subsidiary generals with significant manpower, which eventually contributed to its gradual decline.

The Mongols could conquer, but not hold forever. In many ways the Mongols were akin to Alexander, and suffer from similar problems.

The fact that both crumbled due to internal disputes suggests that although their generals might have been able to seize a large amount of land by working together, it would have been virtually impossible to establish a single stable administration across all of the possessions for more than a century at most. Civil wars eventually caused the generals to drift away from one another after Alexander and Ogodei's deaths, not to mention that the Mongols gradually assimilated into the culture of each respective region.

The Russian Empire was one of the better candidates for my objective, similar to the Habsburgs or the British, but ultimately they did not advance socially and industrially alongside western europe and fell behind. Solving that may help expand their position considerably, bbut they seem much more like a Eurasian Empire than anything else.

While the Russians managed to expand significantly within Europe, they only managed to seize territory that was generally not suitable for widespread settlement within Asia. The Russians would most likely suffer huge losses when attempting to expand further into Central/Western Europe, not to mention that it would take decades, if not centuries, to just gain control over various states within Central Asia, then attempt to confront any firmly established states within East Asia.

So why not combine the three of them?

Each were drastically different from one another to be combined in any way, not to mention that they were at their heights centuries apart from one another. Somehow molding them together requires many centuries of relative cohesion, not to mention that if there is a significant breakaway region, or an incompetent ruler, the entire endeavor will quickly splinter. In addition, the various issues within Eurasia would have to be thoroughly worked out before attempting to tackle Africa, Oceania, and/or the Americas.
 

scholar

Banned
All three were drastically different, and although each had their strengths, they also had their own shortcomings.
Of course, if they had no shortcoming then we would all be speaking a dialect of any of those three languages.

I am also aware that they are drastically different, but there's a period in time where the two were linked and could quite possibly result in a blending. In fact, the Russian Empire had early on mimicked much of the Mongolic-Tartar symbols and had adopted the title of Khan and used this to add legitimacy to their rule in Asia. The Qing Dynasty, while of Machu origin, also had some workings through the Mongols.

China was consistently under threat from the nomads to the north, and there was a complex balance of power that continued to exist within Central and East Asia from around 500 BC to 1270 AD, although some fragments of the system still continued afterwards. The state also reached its heights in terms of territorial extent under the Yuan and Qing, which were founded by outsiders, leading to resentment among the governed, and both failed to make any significant gains into Southeast Asia due to stiff resistance. Although the Tang, which wasn't exactly founded by an "insider" either, came close in terms of territorial possessions, the An Shi Rebellion essentially demonstrated that rapid expansion went hand in hand with assigning large amounts of territory to subsidiary generals with significant manpower, which eventually contributed to its gradual decline.
I know this, I believe I wrote something about this a couple times scattered about. However, the reason why China is a candidate as something of a launching pad was because they did have a history of expansionism (albeit subdued as far as north was concerned), assimilatory policies, and had the population base in order to result in the massive movements of people. A hundred thousand chinese soldiers were moved from China to Persia under the Yuan Dynasty. A hundred thousand. There were far less Greeks in India and Bactria when they spawned Greco-Bactrian and Indo-Greek civilization. Chinese culture also had the habit of making others join it, even without assimilatory policies northern dynasties started out non-chinese but normally ended partially or entirely assimilated.

The fact that both crumbled due to internal disputes suggests that although their generals might have been able to seize a large amount of land by working together, it would have been virtually impossible to establish a single stable administration across all of the possessions for more than a century at most. Civil wars eventually caused the generals to drift away from one another after Alexander and Ogodei's deaths, not to mention that the Mongols gradually assimilated into the culture of each respective region.
There actually were some sub-Mongol khanates that became stable or semi-stable. I would never suggest that the Mongol Empire at its height federates and remains stable, but rather that when it regresses part of it becomes stronger and more closely united.

While the Russians managed to expand significantly within Europe, they only managed to seize territory that was generally not suitable for widespread settlement within Asia. The Russians would most likely suffer huge losses when attempting to expand further into Central/Western Europe, not to mention that it would take decades, if not centuries, to just gain control over various states within Central Asia, then attempt to confront any firmly established states within East Asia.
Russia's greatest flaw in expansion was that its industry never really evolved for its expansionism. It also never really focused on central Asia until the wealth of the region made it attractive to Russian merchants. Had Russia's industry evolved alongside France, Britain, and Germany, then I have little doubt their position in Asia would have been much better.

Each were drastically different from one another to be combined in any way, not to mention that they were at their heights centuries apart from one another. Somehow molding them together requires many centuries of relative cohesion, not to mention that if there is a significant breakaway region, or an incompetent ruler, the entire endeavor will quickly splinter. In addition, the various issues within Eurasia would have to be thoroughly worked out before attempting to tackle Africa, Oceania, and/or the Americas.
The Yuan Dynasty was something of a failed merging, but the Yuan Dynasty was recognized by a lot of Chinese and failed due to problems similar to the way other dynasties fell. Ultimately the Caste system was what harmed it the most. The Russian Empire also styled itself as the Khan's heir in central Asia. So they were combined, and I believe with the right steps its possible.
 
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