No Union in 1707

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If the Scottish parliament does not agree to join in union with England and instead listens to country, what would become of Scotland?
I'm reckoning England would carry on and still become a dominant power on the world stage a large empire would still occur but what of Scotland?

Once Queen Anne dies would Scotland select another monarch, would it return to an Absolute Monarchy?

How long before they get over the Darien Scheme and get their economy going again?

Would Glasgow become a major city without the shipbuilding industry the Royal Navy & Commercial navy brought it?

With a smaller armed forces (the country isn't all that rich at this time) would they attempt another empire?

Would Scotland be more Nordic looking than World?

What effect upon the colonies with no Highland clearances

Would English still be the dominant language?

During the Napoleonic wars would they join in? If so on which side?

Would they become involved in World Wars one and two or remain neutral like Ireland?

Who would they blame for all problems without a government housed in London (tongue in cheek this one)

Would they ever win the World cup?
 
ha, England would never let that happen.

How? Military intervention? Legally without the act of Union, there's nothing they could do. And at the time England was heavily involved in the War of the Spanish Succession on the continent, so did they even have enough home troops to force Scotland to agree with London? Also worst comes to worst, Scotland asks for help from its old ally France, and that would force England to recall troops (and knowing Anne, probably Marlborough as well) to fight the Scots, giving France a chance to retake territory in the Spanish Netherlands.

Or England could decisively lose the War of the Spanish Succession, and an independent Scotland is one of the peace terms.

The Union of the Crowns predates political union, so it would need to occur down south as well.

True but James III & VIII would be the Heir to Scotland after Anne not to mention that a lot of Jacobite support came from Scotland, so its possible. It would really piss off England, but its still possible.
 
I think that, in that case, it would have been quite the same as it was up to 1603 : "Poor Scotland ! So far away from God and so close to England."

But to some extent, the old alliance might have lasted longer, which would have lessened England´s ability to involve safely in continental conflicts or in overseas expansion.
 
I meant a fully independent Scotland. Like when Queen Anne dies, Scotland can chose a different King, instead of the Hanoverian Succession.

It makes sense that a fully independent Scottish Parliament could have have selected a different successor to Queen Anne than the English Parliament; probably not likely to happen, but possible, I suppose.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
I'm reckoning England would carry on and still become a dominant power on the world stage a large empire would still occur but what of Scotland?

Without Scottish infantry and Adam Smith, the British Empire is a not going to amount of much of anything.
 
It makes sense that a fully independent Scottish Parliament could have have selected a different successor to Queen Anne than the English Parliament; probably not likely to happen, but possible, I suppose.


They did. Act of Security 1704.

Specified that on the death of Queen Anne without issue, the three Estates of the (Scottish) Parliament were to appoint a Protestant successor from the descendants of the Scottish kings, but not the English successor unless various economic, political and religious conditions were met. In 1704, the bill became an Act after the Scottish Parliament refused to raise taxes and sought to withdraw troops from the Duke of Marlborough's army in the War of the Spanish Succession unless Royal Assent (of the Queen of Scotland) was given.

The English response was to bribe Scottish legislators to pass the Act of Union 1707.
 
Without Scottish infantry and Adam Smith, the British Empire is a not going to amount of much of anything.
Surely Scottish regiments would be replaced by English, Irish and Welsh ones, not wishing to take any glory away from Scottish regiments but they weren't the only thin red line available, Welsh & Irish regiments also had their ferocious Celtic reputations. As for Adam Smith he wasn't the only Moral philosopher or economic guru around to guide the Empire, obviously the Empire would have had differences but I still think it would happen.
But the question is what would become of Scotland?
 
Clarification is required whether we are talking simply no Act of Union 1707, in which case England and Scotland remain separate kingdoms, but have the same king (as was the case from 1603 to 1707, so I guess it must have worked well enough)

Or if Scotland goes its own way under a different king. In the latter case I would foresee an Anglo-Scotch war and , probably, conquest of Scotland.
 
Clarification is required whether we are talking simply no Act of Union 1707, in which case England and Scotland remain separate kingdoms, but have the same king (as was the case from 1603 to 1707, so I guess it must have worked well enough)

Or if Scotland goes its own way under a different king. In the latter case I would foresee an Anglo-Scotch war and , probably, conquest of Scotland.

Well according to the Act of Security 1704 passed by the Scottish Parliament,on the death of Queen Anne without issue, the three Estates of the Parliament were to appoint a Protestant successor from the descendants of the Scottish kings, but not the English successor unless various economic, political and religious conditions were met.

So it seems to me that Scotland was gearing up to try and reclaim its independence after the death of Queen Anne.
 
Well it _was_ independent before 1707! After all, no-one would argue that Hanover was not independent of England under the Georges.

My take on the Act of Security was that it wasn't really a serious declaration of intent to go a separate way, more of a shot across the bows."If you don't come to the party , we can get nasty, OK ". And also an element of "Whoever the next King is , we want to be consulted about it ". The English kept ignoring them so they rattled the cage.


The Jacobite successes in Scotland show that there was a strong loyalty to the House of Stuart , even when that loyalty was quite obviously futile.
Scotland in the early 1700s was not a happy chappy. Times were hard, harvests bad, and there was a strong sentiment that they were playing poor cousin the England, and that the playing field was definitely tilted England's way, with a highly biased referee. The Darien disaster rather brought matters to a head.
 
If the Scottish parliament does not agree to join in union with England and instead listens to country, what would become of Scotland?
I'm reckoning England would carry on and still become a dominant power on the world stage a large empire would still occur but what of Scotland?

Once Queen Anne dies would Scotland select another monarch, would it return to an Absolute Monarchy?

How long before they get over the Darien Scheme and get their economy going again?

Would Glasgow become a major city without the shipbuilding industry the Royal Navy & Commercial navy brought it?

With a smaller armed forces (the country isn't all that rich at this time) would they attempt another empire?

Would Scotland be more Nordic looking than World?

What effect upon the colonies with no Highland clearances

Would English still be the dominant language?

During the Napoleonic wars would they join in? If so on which side?

Would they become involved in World Wars one and two or remain neutral like Ireland?

Who would they blame for all problems without a government housed in London (tongue in cheek this one)

Would they ever win the World cup?

The napoleonic wars are going to either not exist or look drastically different due to butterflies. They are, after all, over 80 years in the future...
 
Sazzer said:
Once Queen Anne dies would Scotland select another monarch, would it return to an Absolute Monarchy?

It's possible that - with certain stringent provisions - the parliament might have selected James VIII rather than George I. However, knowing how strong the fear of a Catholic monarch was, I doubt it would have come to that. We'd have settled for George I, possibly with an explicitly Scottish coronation cermeony, but all in all, we were headed for a Hanovarian succession whatever. Expect Jacobite rebellions to continue more or less on schedule.

Sazzer said:
How long before they get over the Darien Scheme and get their economy going again?

Couldn't say - I do know that Darien wasn't quite as bad as it is nowadays made out to be. But the economy was pretty pants at the best of times, I doubt that would change any time in the near future. Assuming relatively stable trade patterns with England and Europe, Scotland's economy would remain what it had always been - 'surviving'.

Sazzer said:
Would Glasgow become a major city without the shipbuilding industry the Royal Navy & Commercial navy brought it?

There was already an extensive (largely illicit) trade with the western seaboard of America prior to the union. The union simply codified the Scottish merchants' right to do it without being harassed.

Growth of Glasgow might have been retarded in the short to medium term, but given the availability of rich mineral seams in the area, combined with Glasgow's strategic position on the Clyde, a city in the area was always going to develop one way or the other.

Sazzer said:
With a smaller armed forces (the country isn't all that rich at this time) would they attempt another empire?

Doubtful. I could see, maybe on the ASB horizon, picking up a small Caribbean island or something from one of those big, general peace treaties which were periodically signed during the C18th. But no, Darien had whetted our appetitie for colonial expansion pretty comprehensively.

You never know, though, maybe by the C19th, and if the Spanish empire collapsed on schedule, you might have seen a certain level of 'soft' Scottish interference in Panama ;)

Sazzer said:
Would Scotland be more Nordic looking than World?

Certainly it would have been more European oriented in terms of trade. However, there was always going to be Scottish interaction with the wider world, particularly the Americas.

Sazzer said:
What effect upon the colonies with no Highland clearances

A smaller Scottish contribution to the genetic hodge-podge that is the US and Canada, I'd presume. Then again, similar migration might happen naturally - the Highlands were an accident waiting to happen in terms of population pressure versus arable land. That population has to go somewhere, and TBH, outside of migration to the industrial centres of the Lowlands, the Americas is the logical place for that population to go.

Sazzer said:
Would English still be the dominant language?

Doubt it. We'd have undergone similar linguistic revolutions to other countries in the C19th period, and we'd most likely be speaking standardised Scots which, though intelligible with English, would have the prestige of being by now a state language. Our politicians and aristos had been speaking English for a while before the 1707 union, but expect a resurgence in interest in 'the common language' if the age of nationalism goes ahead here as it did in Europe.

Gaelic would still be strongly spoken, assuming less emigration, but then again a Scots-speaking parliament in Edinburgh would probably do it's damnedest to discourage the language, just as it had in the past. The Highlands would remain tribal, probably until the later C18th. What transpired in OTL was, essentially, a more brutal acceleration of what was already happening - the clan chiefs were already Lowland lairds long before Culloden.

Expect a slower, gentler transition to a post-tribal society as the power of the state expands. There will be efforts to enforce a Scots/English curriculum in the Highlands, but the Highlanders will do what they had traditionally done and ignore Edinburgh's diktats. Much stronger Gaelic culture going into the C19th and 20th.

Sazzer said:
During the Napoleonic wars would they join in? If so on which side?

Nappy gets butterflied away methinks. But certainly, it all depends on the sort of relationship that endures with England. Notwithstanding boo-boos on both sides, the Union of the Crowns had been pretty effective up until that point. Its continuance means 'Britain-in-all-but-name" as far as overseas relations are concerned. The English army already had huge numbers of Scots serving prior to the union, and that would probably have continued in its absence.

So, assuming there's still some sort of French tyranny on the continent, you can expect the Scots to still be sending men to fight it.

Sazzer said:
Would they become involved in World Wars one and two or remain neutral like Ireland?

Again with the butterflies.

Sazzer said:
Who would they blame for all problems without a government housed in London (tongue in cheek this one)

Nope, Edinburgh would get the full blame for things going wrong. One of the objections to losing the Edinburgh parliament, according to one woman interviewed long after the union, was that London was too far away to throw stones at the politicians. Can't remember where I read that, but basically the objection was that our politicians were now immune to lynching if they messed up.

Sazzer said:
Would they ever win the World cup?

Doubtful, in pretty much any ATL.
 
It's possible that - with certain stringent provisions - the parliament might have selected James VIII rather than George I. However, knowing how strong the fear of a Catholic monarch was, I doubt it would have come to that. We'd have settled for George I, possibly with an explicitly Scottish coronation cermeony, but all in all, we were headed for a Hanovarian succession whatever. Expect Jacobite rebellions to continue more or less on schedule.

Whilst I agree with the rest of the post about the King I am not sure. If Scotland wanted to remain close to England then, yes, George I would be the way to go, but he did have younger brothers and the choce of one of those would sever the ties with England most effectivily.

I can't see James returning without renouncing his faith and by agreeing to a written constitution outlining his (restricted) powers, similar to the agreement Anne and William had thrust apon them after the Glorious Revolution.
 
Georgie Porgie said:
Whilst I agree with the rest of the post about the King I am not sure. If Scotland wanted to remain close to England then, yes, George I would be the way to go, but he did have younger brothers and the choce of one of those would sever the ties with England most effectivily.

I can't see James returning without renouncing his faith and by agreeing to a written constitution outlining his (restricted) powers, similar to the agreement Anne and William had thrust apon them after the Glorious Revolution.

Never considered a junior Hanovarian as an option. You'd have the advantage, at least, that said brother would probably actually take up residence here rather than regarding it as a damned nuisance to be governed from Hanover...

And you're right, if (big if) we had opted for James VIII, it would have been conditional on him renouncing his faith - something, devout Catholic that he was - I can't really see him doing. Now, Charles Edward, on the other hand - there you've got a pragmatist you can work with.
 
Why would a rabidly anti catholic Scotland accept a Catholic Stuart King? The Presbyterian Kirk believed that the Pope was the Anti Christ and all Catholics to be in league with the Devil. (Still do in parts of Ulster) They were even uncomfortable with the Anglican Church, regarding it as far too Catholic for their taste. Lets face it the Civil War began in Scotland over attempts to impose a common church. They are not going to go for a Catholic. We may think of the Church as being seperate from government, in the 18th century they didn't.
 
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