AHC: Orthodox conversion east of Rus

Onyx

Banned
The Challenge is to have the Votyaks (Udmurts), Bashkirs, Cumans-Kypchaks, Permians, and Mordvins convert to Eastern Orthodoxy in Medieval Era until the 1400s.

This is very beneficial to my TL, I would like for them to be independent medieval states as well instead of being absorbed

Volga Bulgars are null on this because they already converted to Islam
 
Things that might help (but still not be enough) -

1. Have Rus conquer Volga Bulgaria, that weakens the influence of Islam greatly and opens up Siberia very early.
2. Different Pecheneg/especially Cuman invasions would actually be a good start too...they stymied Russian expansion east (not as bad as the Mongols did, but Russians were settling the steppes at impressive rates both in the post-Khazar period and especially from the late 12th to late 13th c.)
3. Failing that no Mongols, the Cuman elites looked like they were really starting to get baptised by the 13th c.

None of these are that easy to accomplish, though.
 

Onyx

Banned
Things that might help (but still not be enough) -

1. Have Rus conquer Volga Bulgaria, that weakens the influence of Islam greatly and opens up Siberia very early.
2. Different Pecheneg/especially Cuman invasions would actually be a good start too...they stymied Russian expansion east (not as bad as the Mongols did, but Russians were settling the steppes at impressive rates both in the post-Khazar period and especially from the late 12th to late 13th c.)
3. Failing that no Mongols, the Cuman elites looked like they were really starting to get baptised by the 13th c.

None of these are that easy to accomplish, though.

1. Exactly what would happen to that region (Tartarstan) if that happens? I know for sure the Volga Bulgars will be wiped out, but what will happen to the region entirely?

2. I think the Cumans were leanign towards Orthodoxy before the Mongols came

3. As said above

Exactly how hard can this accomplished?
 
The Kipchaks were at one point Christianized by the Georgians. For my idea of an Orthodox conversion east of Rus, there is a TL that I've been working on for a bit (though there hasn't been an update), and it's about the Golden Horde under Sartaq who lives longer past 1256. The drawback is that Nevsky is killed while journeying back to Vladimir-Sudzal from the Mongol Empire, while Sartaq purges his inner circle of those who supported Berke. After several battles involving Halych-Volhynia, Sartaq feels confident enough to introduce Orthodox Christianity to the Golden Horde. However, the Golden Horde does not get help from either the Rus' or the Byzantines, but they gain help in their conversion from a tiny kingdom in the heart of the Balkans.
 

Onyx

Banned
The Kipchaks were at one point Christianized by the Georgians. For my idea of an Orthodox conversion east of Rus, there is a TL that I've been working on for a bit (though there hasn't been an update), and it's about the Golden Horde under Sartaq who lives longer past 1256. The drawback is that Nevsky is killed while journeying back to Vladimir-Sudzal from the Mongol Empire, while Sartaq purges his inner circle of those who supported Berke. After several battles involving Halych-Volhynia, Sartaq feels confident enough to introduce Orthodox Christianity to the Golden Horde. However, the Golden Horde does not get help from either the Rus' or the Byzantines, but they gain help in their conversion from a tiny kingdom in the heart of the Balkans.


You actually told me this and who were the people :D

Do you have the site and info on when were the Kypchaks converted?
 
The Kipchaks had contacts with the Byzantines and the Georgians, and of course most of the named nobles were intermarried rather heavily with the Russians. Some also with Hungary, though of course Hungarians were catholic. And of course while they were certainly converting (over half of their princes at the time of the Mongol invasion have Christian names) they were also mentioned as mostly pagan by the Hungarians with whom they took refuge after the Mongols defeated them in 1237. So Christian elites, pagan common people, but that's a rather standard situation for everyone early on, Russians and Hungarians included.

The earlier Pechenegs were probably very mixed religiously, definitely two tribes were converted to Orthodox in the early 11th c. (but in Wallachia), some more were Muslim to start with or converted after the fall of the Khazars, and possibly they also had Manicheans when they were moving west in the 10th c. alongside native beliefs.

They were regarded as rather hard to convert though according to one story where Vladimir Red Sun got visit from catholic missionaries who wanted to work with the Pechenegs. He agreed and let them, but after many years they had no success and returned home.
 

Onyx

Banned
The Kipchaks had contacts with the Byzantines and the Georgians, and of course most were intermarried rather heavily with the Russians. Some also with Hungary, though of course Hungarians were catholic.

The Pechenegs were probably very mixed religiously, definitely two tribes were converted to Orthodox in the early 11th c. (but in Wallachia), some more were Muslim to start with or converted after the fall of the Khazars, and possibly they also had Manicheans when they were moving west in the 10th c. alongside native beliefs.

They were regarded as rather hard to convert though according to one story where Vladimir Red Sun got visit from catholic missionaries who wanted to work with the Pechenegs. He agreed and let them, but after many years they had no success and returned home.


What about the Cumans? Did they ever really convert or were they more adherent to Tengriism?
 
What about the Cumans? Did they ever really convert or were they more adherent to Tengriism?

Cumans = Western Kipchaks (Polovtsy, Kun)

Eastern Kipchaks (Kimeks and Kangly) became mostly Muslim over the 13th c. as the Karakhanid and Kwarazmian empires expanded and recruited and intermarried with the steppe peoples.

Cumans post-Mongol were driven to Hungary where they converted within a few generations (though not without problems), while a sizable sub-faction later split off and left for Bulgaria where they became Orthodox.

So I would say they weren't particularly conversion-resistant.
 

Onyx

Banned
Cumans = Western Kipchaks (Polovtsy, Kun)

Eastern Kipchaks (Kimeks and Kangly) became mostly Muslim over the 13th c. as the Karakhanid and Kwarazmian empires expanded and recruited and intermarried with the steppe peoples.

Cumans post-Mongol were driven to Hungary where they converted within a few generations (though not without problems), while a sizable sub-faction later split off and left for Bulgaria where they became Orthodox.

So I would say they weren't particularly conversion-resistant.

I thought the Cumans and Kypchaks were different. :confused:
 
I thought the Cumans and Kypchaks were different. :confused:

Kypchak is a general term for a linguistic group and (maybe) a tribal confederation of Kazakhstan/South Russia/Ukraine/Moldova. The confederation wasn't very solid and soon after moving West split into political clusters of independent lords whose politics were defined by their settled neighbours (Russia/Georgia/Hungary in the West, and the cities of Feghana/Khorezm in the east)

The Western Kypchak-speakers were called Polovtsy by the Russians and Kun by the Magyars, Komanoi in Greek. Cuman in Latinized version.

They replaced the earlier conferedations centered around the Kimeks (who could have merged with the Bashkirs and Bulgars as they moved over the Urals), and the Kangly (who may have been Eastern Pechenegs but later formed a military elite within the Kwarazmian state).

Steppes are tricky business that way :p
 
You actually told me this and who were the people :D

Do you have the site and info on when were the Kypchaks converted?

The tiny Balkan kingdom that converted the Golden Horde in one of my TLs was the Kingdom of Serbia, under the House of Nemanjic.
 
I meant about the Kypchaks being christianize in OTL by the Georgians

If it happened to the ones that remained in the steppes and not only the ones that settled in Georgia, it probably happened during the reigns of David the Builder and his successors Demetre, David and Georgi (so quite early). Although later the relationship broke down, it's possible that there were conversions until the reign of Rusudan

After that both got conquered by Mongols.
 
Would Orthodox Cumans (etc.) be any likelier to develop something more organized than they had already, or are they going to remain as nomadic as they were as pagans?

If still on the steppes, I mean.
 
Would Orthodox Cumans (etc.) be any likelier to develop something more organized than they had already, or are they going to remain as nomadic as they were as pagans?

If still on the steppes, I mean.

Depends on what kind of deal they make because of the conversion and what sect, although nestorianism is the go-to "nomadic khanate adopts eastern christianity" sect.
 
Depends on what kind of deal they make because of the conversion and what sect, although nestorianism is the go-to "nomadic khanate adopts eastern christianity" sect.

Not so much for those with ties to the Orthodox polities, I would think.
 
Not so much for those with ties to the Orthodox polities, I would think.

If they go for mainline orthodoxy the influx of priests and missionaries could somewhat russify the way the state is run. Nestorianism is a wild card though, I don't know if theres ever been a Nestorian polite before.
 
Would Orthodox Cumans (etc.) be any likelier to develop something more organized than they had already, or are they going to remain as nomadic as they were as pagans?

If still on the steppes, I mean.

I think the Pontic steppe and westwards almost precludes full nomadism, but it's hard to say. The Pechenegs looked like they were settling, then the Cumans uprooted them and they started up raiding as a whole nation again until the Byzantines/Cumans/Hungarians ended them.

The Tork (Ghuzz)/Pechenegs that lived next to Rus (Black Hats) became properly settled and an important source of support for Russian princes vs. their cities and vs. each other, so it's not out of the question.

There were also plenty of towns on the Russian Steppe, populated by (probably Turcified) Steppe Alans left over from the Khazar era, which were then used by the Cumans (the Sharukan', Sugrov, Balin and Cheshuyev in the Chronicles) as forts/trade posts/winter residences.

Vladimir Monomach's expeditions sacked all of them in the mid-12th c. and threw the Cumans back to the Volga for a generation, though, so it's hard to say.

That said there were LOTS of settlement going on at the time. Volga Finns (Mordvins and Mokshans) were starting to coalesce somewhat, Volga Bulgars were spreading south along the Volga, the Cumans were settling Alania and intermingling, Russians of course were colonising the river basins very rapidly.

There was also likely a string of towns on most of the major river crossings all the way to the Irtysh.

The Mongol invasion however levelled all of those things and disrupted things immensely (Russian crackpot Eurasianism and whatever other silly theories notwithstanding, the archeology is pretty solid).

There was a burst of urbanisation in the early 13th c. under the Golden Horde (Volga Estuary, Don, Volga Bulgaria, North Caucasus, Dniepr Crossings, Crimea, Dniestr - all the usual places basically) but by the end of that period Timur went and sacked and slaughtered his way pretty much over the entire area. Whatever wasn't taken by Lithuania remained ruined with few exceptions until the late 15th c. when Muscovy, Crimea, Lithuania and Kazan became stronger.

The Steppe itself wasn't settled to 13th c. levels until the Russians built the last big defensive line in the 1650-1670s (not counting the Kuban and Grebensk lines of course, I meant just the Don/Donets area).

So without the Mongols, most other nomadic nations were probably going to increasingly rely on permanent focal points. They were destructive of course (as were the Russians on occasion) but the Mongols were something special in that regard.
 
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