Poland expanding to the West in Middle Ages - possibilities

Chrzęścimir · Dec 30, 2012

Would he be a possible scenario in which Poland would develop in the west? In OTL Polish kingdom was developing to the east. What if we take into account for example the scenario where some districts successfully unites the Silesian Duke Henry Probus?
What with the Pomerania and situation in the relations between Poland and Bohemia?

seraphim74 · Dec 31, 2012

I agree that Poland united by one of the Silesian dukes would have been a good start to more westward expanding Poland. Or perhaps Przemysł II stays alive, allies with one of the Silesian dukes, their children marry and unite most of Polish duchies, with the rest being reconquered one by one. Pomerania might be harder, but some kind of anti-Brandenburg alliance between Poles and Pomeranians is possible and eliminating the New March would have made a good goal for such an alliance. Strong, united Poland would have had no reason to fear the Teutonic Order, since the TO would not have dared to mess with Polish kings - Gdańsk/Danzig remains in Polish hands, TO focuses on conquering Lithuania, possibly with Polish help (with less expansion).
Another good ally for Poland might be Hungary - together they can defeat Bohemia, with Poland getting, well, rest of Silesia and perhaps Lusatia.

Elfwine · Dec 31, 2012

seraphim74 said:
I agree that Poland united by one of the Silesian dukes would have been a good start to more westward expanding Poland. Or perhaps Przemysł II stays alive, allies with one of the Silesian dukes, their children marry and unite most of Polish duchies, with the rest being reconquered one by one. Pomerania might be harder, but some kind of anti-Brandenburg alliance between Poles and Pomeranians is possible and eliminating the New March would have made a good goal for such an alliance. Strong, united Poland would have had no reason to fear the Teutonic Order, since the TO would not have dared to mess with Polish kings - Gdańsk/Danzig remains in Polish hands, TO focuses on conquering Lithuania, possibly with Polish help (with less expansion).
Another good ally for Poland might be Hungary - together they can defeat Bohemia, with Poland getting, well, rest of Silesia and perhaps Lusatia.

Problem: Bohemia is part of the HRE. Which is to say, it's going to cry for help from a potentially stronger force than Poland and Hungary put together.

Mr. BoJangles · Dec 31, 2012

I played a hands-off game of EUIII where Poland attempted just this. Maybe it started too late for it to be effective (since I was the earliest point). But a Polish-Hungarian Alliance nearly defeated Bohemia until Brandenburg and their German allies marched east. The Teutonic Order joined in after a bit as well and they all defeated Poland. Lithuania became TO, most of Poland became German or Bohemian. Hungary remained though.

Chrzęścimir · Dec 31, 2012

What would happen to the lands on east side of Vistula ? At the time of engagement in the West would be absorbed by the united Poland or conquered by Ruthenia/Halych ?

seraphim74 · Dec 31, 2012

Originally posted by Elfwine

Problem: Bohemia is part of the HRE. Which is to say, it's going to cry for help from a potentially stronger force than Poland and Hungary put together.

HRE wasn't united power, more a comglomerate of duchies and kingdoms, so who will be that potentially stronger force? And even if such a force would be found, there should be also someone ready to ally with Poles and Hungarians against that it. As long as Polish-Hungarian alliance doesn't destroy Bohemia as a kingdom (which indeed could trigger more decisive reaction) they might win against it.

Originally posted by Chrzęścimir

What would happen to the lands on east side of Vistula ? At the time of engagement in the West would be absorbed by the united Poland or conquered by Ruthenia/Halych ?

It is a matter who reunites most of Polish duchies, when and how. In 13th century Silesian dukes controlled quite a large part of Poland. Personally, I think that most of those lands would be reunited, with exception of Masovia, becoming more or less Polish ally/vassal with some chances for future reunification.
It has also to be said that a conflict with Bohemia does not have to happen. Most of Polish-Bohemian conflict had its source in Silesia. Polish and Bohemian rulers fought for domination over smaller or bigger duchies there. But if the Silesian Piasts are the ones to reunite Poland, especially in 13th century, such a conflict is not a must.
Also, reunification of Poland might be quite a long process - let's say it starts with Silesia, Great Poland and Little Poland. Later perhaps Kuyavia, then lands of Sieradz and Łęczyca, perhaps also Pomerelia with Gdańsk/Danzig. A clash with Brandenburg is IMHO inevitable, if Poland wants to get closer with Pomerania. All of that, however, can take a lot of time.

Originally posted by Mr. BoJangles

I played a hands-off game of EUIII where Poland attempted just this. Maybe it started too late for it to be effective (since I was the earliest point). But a Polish-Hungarian Alliance nearly defeated Bohemia until Brandenburg and their German allies marched east. The Teutonic Order joined in after a bit as well and they all defeated Poland. Lithuania became TO, most of Poland became German or Bohemian. Hungary remained though.

No offence, but a computer game is not a very convincing argumetn. In Empire Total War playing as PLC I conquered whole Europe, Ottoman Empire and at the end my winged hussars charged the elephants in India. So what?
Besides, as you said - Polish-Hungarian alliance almost won. With a little more luck...

Deleted member 14881 · Dec 31, 2012

What about that King Boleslaw not dividing his kingdom between his sons?

Elfwine · Dec 31, 2012

seraphim74 said:
Originally posted by Elfwine

HRE wasn't united power, more a comglomerate of duchies and kingdoms, so who will be that potentially stronger force? And even if such a force would be found, there should be also someone ready to ally with Poles and Hungarians against that it. As long as Polish-Hungarian alliance doesn't destroy Bohemia as a kingdom (which indeed could trigger more decisive reaction) they might win against it.

That "conglomerate of duchies and kingdoms". If someone is invading Bohemia, the Emperor will respond, and not very many princes are going to watch the empire - which is at least acknowledged internally as one unit (of sorts) - be invaded out of sheer expansionism.

And there's no reason for anyone to ally with the Poles and Hungarians in this scenario. They're not strong enough to make promises like Louis XIV or otherwise appealing.

MarshalBraginsky · Dec 31, 2012

You know, kasumigenx probably knows a bit about Poland under the Piasts. Other than that, was there a time when Poland and Bohemia were kinda together?

Marko · Dec 31, 2012

MarshalBraginsky said:
You know, kasumigenx probably knows a bit about Poland under the Piasts. Other than that, was there a time when Poland and Bohemia were kinda together?

For about 4 years while Polish troops occupied Bohemia at the turn of the 10th to 11th century.

Elfwine · Dec 31, 2012

And Wenceslaus III tried to become king of Poland as well as Bohemia, but that's the wrong direction for this.

Chrzęścimir · Dec 31, 2012

Boleslaw the Brave took Bohemia in a year 1003, after death of Władywoj (a brother or cousin of Bolesław ??). But a year later, he was forced to withdraw back to the Poland due to local rebellion.

Hungary is a traditional ally of the Poland. In the history of Polish-Hungarian relations armed conflict had gone only during rivalry for Red Ruthenia. Personally, I see no reason that the "Western scenario" Hungary should not be an ally of the Piasts.

erich von changstein said:
What about that King Boleslaw not dividing his kingdom between his sons?

Can probably assume that Bolesław he wanted to avoid for his sons did not repeated the events from the years of his youth. Wladyslaw Herman, the father of Bolesław, divided Poland between two his sons; the northern part (Greater Poland, Cuyavia, Mazovia) was accounted for the elder of the brothers, Zbigniew. The southern part of the kingdom was for Boleslaw.
In a civil war between them Bolesław was victorious. Zbigniew was banished from the country, and after his return, his brother ordered to blind him and to close in the dungeons.

Tobit · Dec 31, 2012

Didn't the Hussite Wars bring Poland pretty close to ruling Bohemia?

seraphim74 · Dec 31, 2012

Originally posted by Elfwine

That "conglomerate of duchies and kingdoms". If someone is invading Bohemia, the Emperor will respond, and not very many princes are going to watch the empire - which is at least acknowledged internally as one unit (of sorts) - be invaded out of sheer expansionism.

IF Bohemia itself is invaded. However, if it is simply stopped from expanding to Silesia and given bloodied nose by Hungarians and Poles, I do not think the rest of the HRE would interfere. Notice, that I mentioned something similar earlier.

Chrzęścimir · Dec 31, 2012

The main reason for Polish-Bohemian antagonism were Czech claims to Silesia and the Land of Kraków. City of Kraków had some political links with the Kingdom of Bohemia (probably a personal union) before the annexation by the Piasts.

Elfwine · Dec 31, 2012

seraphim74 said:
IF Bohemia itself is invaded. However, if it is simply stopped from expanding to Silesia and given bloodied nose by Hungarians and Poles, I do not think the rest of the HRE would interfere. Notice, that I mentioned something similar earlier.

I agree. And while Silesia is disputed territory, Bohemia can certainly ask - but the chance of receiving a favorable response on a large scale is much lower.

But if you do invade Bohemia (and Moravia) proper, whether you dismantle it entirely or no, expect a lot of hostility.

Still, the idea of Poland having a firm (compared to OTL) position in the West is far from impossible, especially if Silesia is kept.

Darth_Kiryan · Dec 31, 2012

Poland-Prussia anybody?

kasumigenx · Jan 1, 2013

seraphim74 said:
Originally posted by Elfwine

HRE wasn't united power, more a comglomerate of duchies and kingdoms, so who will be that potentially stronger force? And even if such a force would be found, there should be also someone ready to ally with Poles and Hungarians against that it. As long as Polish-Hungarian alliance doesn't destroy Bohemia as a kingdom (which indeed could trigger more decisive reaction) they might win against it.

Originally posted by Chrzęścimir

It is a matter who reunites most of Polish duchies, when and how. In 13th century Silesian dukes controlled quite a large part of Poland. Personally, I think that most of those lands would be reunited, with exception of Masovia, becoming more or less Polish ally/vassal with some chances for future reunification.
It has also to be said that a conflict with Bohemia does not have to happen. Most of Polish-Bohemian conflict had its source in Silesia. Polish and Bohemian rulers fought for domination over smaller or bigger duchies there. But if the Silesian Piasts are the ones to reunite Poland, especially in 13th century, such a conflict is not a must.
Also, reunification of Poland might be quite a long process - let's say it starts with Silesia, Great Poland and Little Poland. Later perhaps Kuyavia, then lands of Sieradz and Łęczyca, perhaps also Pomerelia with Gdańsk/Danzig. A clash with Brandenburg is IMHO inevitable, if Poland wants to get closer with Pomerania. All of that, however, can take a lot of time.

Originally posted by Mr. BoJangles

No offence, but a computer game is not a very convincing argumetn. In Empire Total War playing as PLC I conquered whole Europe, Ottoman Empire and at the end my winged hussars charged the elephants in India. So what?
Besides, as you said - Polish-Hungarian alliance almost won. With a little more luck...

MarshalBraginsky said:
You know, kasumigenx probably knows a bit about Poland under the Piasts. Other than that, was there a time when Poland and Bohemia were kinda together?

Marko said:
For about 4 years while Polish troops occupied Bohemia at the turn of the 10th to 11th century.

Chrzęścimir said:
The main reason for Polish-Bohemian antagonism were Czech claims to Silesia and the Land of Kraków. City of Kraków had some political links with the Kingdom of Bohemia (probably a personal union) before the annexation by the Piasts.

Elfwine said:
I agree. And while Silesia is disputed territory, Bohemia can certainly ask - but the chance of receiving a favorable response on a large scale is much lower.

But if you do invade Bohemia (and Moravia) proper, whether you dismantle it entirely or no, expect a lot of hostility.

Still, the idea of Poland having a firm (compared to OTL) position in the West is far from impossible, especially if Silesia is kept.

I think the Latest POD's Poland could had been united by the Silesian Piasts are if Leszek the Black sires sons with Agrippina of Slavonia, Elisabeth Richeza of Poland marrying a Silesian Piast instead of the King of Bohemia or Mary of Hungary marries Wladyslaw Opolczyk, I think Leszek the Black siring sons with Agrippina of Slavonia is a good POD because Kuyavia becomes fragmented.

I think Krakow, Red Ruthenia and Silesia would had remained under Bohemia if Dobrawa of Bohemia never died.

Chrzęścimir · Jan 1, 2013

kasumigenx said:
I think Krakow, Red Ruthenia and Silesia would had remained under Bohemia if Dobrawa of Bohemia never died.

It is about the mother of Bolesław the Brave? How does she depend on the fate of the disputed lands?
Can I ask for more details on a relationship the Red Ruthenia with Bohemia in these times ?

Would be possible, at least in some parts Polabíans succumbed to annexation by Poland?

kasumigenx · Jan 1, 2013

Chrzęścimir said:
It is about the mother of Bolesław the Brave? How does she depend on the fate of the disputed lands?
Can I ask for more details on a relationship the Red Ruthenia with Bohemia in these times ?

Would be possible, at least in some parts Polabíans succumbed to annexation by Poland?

Red Ruthenia was once a part of Bohemia after it expanded after the destruction of Great Moravia, Poland never waged war with Bohemia when Dobrawa was living, when Dobrawa died Poland allied with the Holy Roman Empire and severed its alliance with Bohemia and later Mieszko married Oda, a german noblewoman and later Poland attacked Bohemia.

I think Boleslaw the Brave could annex the Polabian lands.

Poland expanding to the West in Middle Ages - possibilities

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