AHC: Timurid Empire holds.

  • Thread starter Deleted member 14881
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Deleted member 14881

How do you get Timurid Empire to not collapse after Timur's death?
 
Probably to have be less successful in the west. Turn the timurids into the Mughals-Alpha and have them fail in fighting the Ottomans or Leftover Mongols in Persia / Mesopotamia and instead have them continue southeast after Dehli, conquering the Indian subcontinent and setting themselves up as rulers of India.
 
Probably to have be less successful in the west. Turn the timurids into the Mughals-Alpha and have them fail in fighting the Ottomans or Leftover Mongols in Persia / Mesopotamia and instead have them continue southeast after Dehli, conquering the Indian subcontinent and setting themselves up as rulers of India.

And this helps the stability of the empire how?

This avoids the problems over who his successor will be how?

Assuming those conquests are even feasible, which I wouldn't swear to.
 

Deleted member 14881

perhaps something like Central Persia, Central Asia and Delhi
 

Deleted member 14881

I meant something like Timur is more of a Empire builder than OTL
 
And this helps the stability of the empire how?

This avoids the problems over who his successor will be how?

Assuming those conquests are even feasible, which I wouldn't swear to.

The Timurid going west geographically hamstrung the Empire and gave them delusions of grandeur. When they sacked Baghdad Timur and company thought they could do everything the mongols did. Then they wasted time campaigning in Georgia getting very little done and when they turned on the Turks they got even less done except help all of the various non-ottoman Beyliks and the Byzantines for a short time. Persia was nothing but trouble and Timurid policy of "oppress all of the Shia" was obviously pretty unpopular in Iran.

The reason Timur sacked Dehli and created the famous pile-of skulls was because the Timurid Empire had before forayed into India and had difficulty holding it, but also had obligations in the west and it was easier to simply cripple Dehli.

This leaves succession. Fixing this is probably the hardest part, but if he conquers the sub-continent or at least a significant part of Rajputistan / Baluchistan he can tell the cliques in Samarkand that they are now they are no longer going to be reforming the Illkhanate, but are going to be creating a new and better one with India in it, something the Mongols never managed.

Timur saw himself as restoring the old Illkhanate, perhaps diverting that goal early on is the best method for securing long term stability.
 

Deleted member 14881

@ Axeman maybe if Timur decides to attempt to adminstrate the empire better than OTL
 
The Timurid going west geographically hamstrung the Empire and gave them delusions of grandeur. When they sacked Baghdad Timur and company thought they could do everything the mongols did. Then they wasted time campaigning in Georgia getting very little done and when they turned on the Turks they got even less done except help all of the various non-ottoman Beyliks and the Byzantines for a short time. Persia was nothing but trouble and Timurid policy of "oppress all of the Shia" was obviously pretty unpopular in Iran.

Going East isn't going magically make Timur into an empire builder or have a realistic view of what he can do, however.

The reason Timur sacked Dehli and created the famous pile-of skulls was because the Timurid Empire had before forayed into India and had difficulty holding it, but also had obligations in the west and it was easier to simply cripple Dehli.

And so?

This leaves succession. Fixing this is probably the hardest part, but if he conquers the sub-continent or at least a significant part of Rajputistan / Baluchistan he can tell the cliques in Samarkand that they are now they are no longer going to be reforming the Illkhanate, but are going to be creating a new and better one with India in it, something the Mongols never managed.

Timur saw himself as restoring the old Illkhanate, perhaps diverting that goal early on is the best method for securing long term stability.

And doing that is not going to change the fact he lacks an obvious, capable successor - and those who do look like possible successors don't exactly get along as buddies that would happily accept his preferred candidate - one bit.

All this does is mean the Timurids "control" an even larger area, spreading what loyal elements there are even thinner.
 
Timur has to stop his ceaseless campaigning much earlier and restrict his conquests to an area he can feasibly rule. Maybe he can get a different set of advisors who can convince him to consolidate his gains.
 

Deleted member 14881

Timur has to stop his ceaseless campaigning much earlier and restrict his conquests to an area he can feasibly rule. Maybe he can get a different set of advisors who can convince him to consolidate his gains.

How much do you think Timur could hold?
 
Timur has to stop his ceaseless campaigning much earlier and restrict his conquests to an area he can feasibly rule. Maybe he can get a different set of advisors who can convince him to consolidate his gains.

The problem isn't so much it being infeasible to rule a fairly good sized area, the problem is that Timur was a conqueror, not an administrator, lacked capable heirs, and . . . well, see Alexander more than past Mongols.

Having a smaller state will help, but you still need a capable successor (and "he can groom _____" doesn't do much good if _____ dies before him, is killed by ambitious brothers/cousins/generals, or otherwise fails to take over smoothly after Timur's death).
 
Going East isn't going magically make Timur into an empire builder or have a realistic view of what he can do, however.

And so?

And doing that is not going to change the fact he lacks an obvious, capable successor - and those who do look like possible successors don't exactly get along as buddies that would happily accept his preferred candidate - one bit.

All this does is mean the Timurids "control" an even larger area, spreading what loyal elements there are even thinner.

Going east is going to change is perceptions and objectives. Timur saw himself as the rightful heir ,by virtue of strength of arms, to the Illkhanate. Remove that and you solve a lot of problems. It does not mean that you will end up with an easy situation by any means, but it will be better than OTL.

Also the timurids would control a smaller, but richer, area. When I meant conquer the Indian subcontinent I did not mean to Bengal or Ceylon, just reliably holding onto an area around the Indus and Northern Ganges will be alot. Timur can of course sack alot of India, but he doesn't have to hold.
 
Going east is going to change is perceptions and objectives. Timur saw himself as the rightful heir ,by virtue of strength of arms, to the Illkhanate. Remove that and you solve a lot of problems. It does not mean that you will end up with an easy situation by any means, but it will be better than OTL.

I don't see how any of the problems with a lack of capable heirs, a lack of administrative concern, or cities not wanting to be ruled by the Timurids are changed because Timur isn't seeing himself as the rightful heir to the Ilkhanate and is seeing himself as doing something the Mongols never succeeded at.

You need a different man from OTL Timur in the first place, not one that focuses on the East, to make him spend more time building up a realm than sacking and pillaging.

Also the timurids would control a smaller, but richer, area. When I meant conquer the Indian subcontinent I did not mean to Bengal or Ceylon, just reliably holding onto an area around the Indus and Northern Ganges will be alot. Timur can of course sack alot of India, but he doesn't have to hold.
So when you say "conquer the Indian subcontinent", you don't really mean "conquer the Indian subcontinent", you mean "I'm going to deliberately phrase this so you think I mean something I didn't."

Me? Cranky? Whatever gave you that idea?

India is a large area. Even "a significant part" is still going to mean a very far flung new polity with very, very shallow roots. That's unstable by definition, even if Timur is fortunate enough to have a capable heir who isn't killed.
 
You need a different man from OTL Timur in the first place, not one that focuses on the East, to make him spend more time building up a realm than sacking and pillaging.

Well, that's the real thing of it. Timur was a relentless conqueror and destroyer, not much of a builder of anything. For this AHC to work, you need something to happen that changes his personality.
 

Deleted member 14881

as a POD during his campaign in Herat he almost gets killed, Timur now is worried about his life and is concuses about empire buliding
 
as a POD during his campaign in Herat he almost gets killed, Timur now is worried about his life and is concuses about empire buliding

"God saved me so that I could go on to greater things! I AM INVINCIBLE!"

"What if really dramatic personality changes were easy to make?" is one of the least plausible what ifs on this board.
 
I don't see how any of the problems with a lack of capable heirs, a lack of administrative concern, or cities not wanting to be ruled by the Timurids are changed because Timur isn't seeing himself as the rightful heir to the Ilkhanate and is seeing himself as doing something the Mongols never succeeded at.

You need a different man from OTL Timur in the first place, not one that focuses on the East, to make him spend more time building up a realm than sacking and pillaging.

So when you say "conquer the Indian subcontinent", you don't really mean "conquer the Indian subcontinent", you mean "I'm going to deliberately phrase this so you think I mean something I didn't."

Me? Cranky? Whatever gave you that idea?

India is a large area. Even "a significant part" is still going to mean a very far flung new polity with very, very shallow roots. That's unstable by definition, even if Timur is fortunate enough to have a capable heir who isn't killed.

Trajan conquered Dacia and Mesopotamia. The Romans didn't hold them.
Timur could easily conquer to Bengal and Ceylon, but not hold.

English is my second language, conquer refers to militarily taking something over as opposed to annex / hold which means legally integrate and hold on, correct?

Timur was amazingly pragmatic. Horrible as it sounds killing all other heirs isn't unheard of and could be beneficial for the Empire.

Repeat what the Mongols did in China and what the Mughals did in India combined with humbling Timur and sending him east *perhaps the Katarids humble him early on, so he decides to go South where early on he learns the value of auxiliaries in Afghanistan / Punjab?* and you at least have a road to go down.
 
Trajan conquered Dacia and Mesopotamia. The Romans didn't hold them.
Timur could easily conquer to Bengal and Ceylon, but not hold.

English is my second language, conquer refers to militarily taking something over as opposed to annex / hold which means legally integrate and hold on, correct?

Pretty much. But generally speaking, we use "conquer" in this context to mean "militarily take something over and possess".

For instance, the Spanish conquest of (much of) the Americas.

Timur was amazingly pragmatic. Horrible as it sounds killing all other heirs isn't unheard of and could be beneficial for the Empire.

Question is, who other than the chosen one does he kill? And how does he avoid them rebelling?

Repeat what the Mongols did in China and what the Mughals did in India combined with humbling Timur and sending him east *perhaps the Katarids humble him early on, so he decides to go South where early on he learns the value of auxiliaries in Afghanistan / Punjab?* and you at least have a road to go down.

I'm not sure. You still have a warlord with a warlord's mindset.
 

Deleted member 14881

So unless Timur is a completely different person this is as plausible as the Ottomans losing 1453 at Constantinople.
 
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