MGB 1990

Do you think the MGB sports car could have been kept in production until the introduction of the MG RV8 in the early 1990s? What changes would you make to the basic car to keep it credible. It doesn't have to be competitive with contemporary cars but it would incorporate new technology and other modifications/facelifts where appropriate.

I can see it remaining in relatively low volume production and appealing with it's retro charms in a similar way to the Morgan, the Citroen 2cv and the Rover mini into the 1990s. Possible scenarios might involve a successful take over of the MG brand by Aston Martin if they can get their finances sorted and reach an agreement with BL. Perhaps licence use of the MG logo? Or maybe Leyland look at the sales figures for the TR7 and look at the sales figures for the MGB and decide to back the MG for a few more years either at Abingdon or with production moved elsewhere (overseas even?).

The roadster and GT are both kept in production and upgraded several times through until the 1990s. The B series engine gets tossed and is replaced by the new O series, later the T series. A fairly simple redesign, partly cosmetic (trim for example) and partly to lighten the car (lose or at least scale down the rubber bumpers for example) is the first step. As the decade progresses the car is upgraded with better brakes and suspension systems, similar to those developed for the RV8. These come mostly from BL/Rover parts bins.

I wonder how it would look at the end of it's life when the MX5 Miata is a common, and probably cheaper alternative and the new MGF is being launched?

What do you think? Can we sort of mildly wank the MGB?

When I started to wonder about improving the B, I googled up rear suspension, and found out that it's the first thing others think of as well. Only they call it tramp and I called it tromp, the car's inability to handle road seams without announcing it. I never owned one so I didn't worry about the front suspension, which only leaked. The question is which path do you take through the plethora of alternatives.

Weber 45DCOE.

I've had a few adventures in the B and I feel your pain.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=263428

The other week I had an idea for the MG Twin Cam engine to be successful. I think that this engine would be a boon for MG through the 60s, keeping a technological edge over the array of ordinary engines out there.

First thing to do is steal the rear suspension from an E-type.

Then stuff the Rover-Buick V8 under the hood. (In Morgan +8 tune, I'd say.) Boost displacement to 4 liters & up as the urge strikes (by 1995, 5.2 liters should readily be possible; hot rodders had figured out how to achieve 5 liters by '89).

Switch to fuel injection?

IMO, you also need better brakes, if you're going to have all that extra power. And a stronger tranny, if you're going to have all that extra torque. (5 speed ZF?)

A full-width hood bulge for sheer coolness wouldn't be amiss. Personally, I prefer a wider version of something like the SVO Turbo scoop.

There are plenty of aftermarket mods that can turn the average B into a very capable and quite modern sports car. Power steering, air con and all that sort of thing. Firms like Frontline Engineering do some amazing bolt on upgrades to the suspension etc as well as doing a K series engine conversion mated with a Ford 5 speed. If only I had the money .

However it would be really interesting to see how the car might have evolved under BL management and later Rover in the early 1990s.

Incidentally, here's the proposed, fairly moderate facelift by Aston for 1981 and the story of the bid. The ghastly rubber battering rams have been restyled into something more pleasing to the eye at least. I think it looks lighter and better balanced than later production Bs; http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/concepts/concepts-and-prototypes/sports-car-projects-aston-mgb/

EAF602Whizz said:

here's the proposed, fairly moderate facelift by Aston for 1981 and the story of the bid. The ghastly rubber battering rams have been restyled into something more pleasing to the eye at least. I think it looks lighter and better balanced than later production Bs; http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/concepts/concepts-and-prototypes/sports-car-projects-aston-mgb/

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That's got a very evolutionary feel to it.

Thing is, if you've got the old chassis under it, you've got the "lipstick on a pig" problem: it's still a pig.

OTOH, if you put a better chassis under more/less the old skin, you wouldn't be miles off where you'd want to be: it wasn't ugly or desperately dated, & if Porsche & Morgan could hang in there with detail changes...

I read the MGB as Motor Gun Boats.

It's not a platform chassis like the Triumph TRs though so the chassis is the body. The early ones had lightweight aluminium bonnets as opposed to the later, presumably cost cutting, much heavier steel ones. Those wretched safety compliance bumpers weigh around 6 or 7 stone between them and the car's ride height was also raised in the mid 70s, again to comply with new rules regarding headlights or something. This caused some handling problems ironically making them less safe.
Since by 1980 the traditional US market for British sports cars had declined drastically I would suggest that these safety features could be reversed straight away. Aston's basic redesign works for me so maybe something similar. Upgrade the brakes with parts from other BL cars. I read somewhere that the Rover Princess parts are a popular fit. Maybe even get discs all round. Use one of the newer engines that were coming into production. The BMC B series had been in production in one form or another since 1947 and, having swapped one, believe me it's ruddy heavy. I believe even the V8 option is lighter.
A lighter, leaner more modern MGB with 1980s trim and comfort levels would not have been difficult to achieve. It's not going to sell as well as it used to in the era of hot hatches but if it can be kept alive until the end of the decade when the MX5 appeared then I regard that as a good outcome.

This one's a bit too rich for my taste and it loses some of it's heritage by shifting to a foreign engine: http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/news/news-new-mgb-to-be-unveiled-next-month/

It is pretty though and impressive.

EAF602Whizz said:

It's not a platform chassis like the Triumph TRs though so the chassis is the body.

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AIUI, the running gear dated to the TD, at least in the rear axle. That needed changing.

EAF602Whizz said:

The early ones had lightweight aluminium bonnets as opposed to the later, presumably cost cutting, much heavier steel ones.

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Nobody had ever heard of fiberglass (or GRP, I suppose I should say)?

EAF602Whizz said:

Those wretched safety compliance bumpers weigh around 6 or 7 stone between them

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Then again, the '85 Mustang's energy-absorbing bumpers were about 40pd each...

EAF602Whizz said:

s ride height was also raised in the mid 70s, again to comply with new rules regarding headlights or something.

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If AROnline is right, that was it.

EAF602Whizz said:

traditional US market for British sports cars had declined drastically I would suggest that these safety features could be reversed straight away.

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You'd abandon the U.S. market entirely? And all the MG fans on this side of the Pond?

EAF602Whizz said:

Upgrade the brakes with parts from other BL cars. I read somewhere that the Rover Princess parts are a popular fit.

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Was that a bolt-in? Or did it need a major factory retooling?

EAF602Whizz said:

newer engines that were coming into production. The BMC B series had been in production in one form or another since 1947 and, having swapped one, believe me it's ruddy heavy. I believe even the V8 option is lighter.

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The Rover-Buick certainly is; bare block was 320pd.

Stop sending them out of the factory pre-rusted might have helped. The mid 70s Mgs were appalling for rust problems, I spent a summer holiday helping at my Uncles British Leyland dealership prepping new cars for customers. I remember a brand new MGB that had to be resprayed because the bodywork was bubbling, turned out the waxoyl body sealant hadnt been sprayed on. The car had sat in the weather at the Abingdon factory for 6 months gently rusting away before it was registered and sent to my uncles garage.

EAF602Whizz said:

It's not a platform chassis like the Triumph TRs though so the chassis is the body. The early ones had lightweight aluminium bonnets as opposed to the later, presumably cost cutting, much heavier steel ones. Those wretched safety compliance bumpers weigh around 6 or 7 stone between them and the car's ride height was also raised in the mid 70s, again to comply with new rules regarding headlights or something. This caused some handling problems ironically making them less safe.
Since by 1980 the traditional US market for British sports cars had declined drastically I would suggest that these safety features could be reversed straight away. Aston's basic redesign works for me so maybe something similar. Upgrade the brakes with parts from other BL cars. I read somewhere that the Rover Princess parts are a popular fit. Maybe even get discs all round. Use one of the newer engines that were coming into production. The BMC B series had been in production in one form or another since 1947 and, having swapped one, believe me it's ruddy heavy. I believe even the V8 option is lighter.
A lighter, leaner more modern MGB with 1980s trim and comfort levels would not have been difficult to achieve. It's not going to sell as well as it used to in the era of hot hatches but if it can be kept alive until the end of the decade when the MX5 appeared then I regard that as a good outcome.

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Took a look at the proposed redesign, & it looks pretty good- if it was sturdy enough for crash purposes, & the car can get some trim, mechanical, suspension, & quality-control upgrades, then it could stay viable for a while longer.

Incidentally, the late rubber-bumper ones are so ugly that at least one of the major restoration parts suppliers for MGs & other British sports car in the US offers a kit to convert the late cars to the earlier look for $1200- don't really know what MGB people think of it though

I can see Hydrolastic and later Hydragas suspension systems being used on a heavily updated / modernised MGB, with power coming from existing engines such as the S/O/M/T-Series 4-cylinders along with the Rover V8 as well as countless stillborn prototype or potentially uprated engines like the B-OHC, Rover V6 or even updated Rover SD1-Six.

Developed versions of the A-Series such as the A-OHC and the all-new K-Series may be possible for powering the alternate MGB though both engines would have been better served powering a production version of the MG EX234 as a long-running Midget replacement sitting beneath the MGB (that would itself go on to be replaced by an alternate MGF).

Masked Grizzly said:

I can see Hydrolastic and later Hydragas suspension systems being used

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Isn't that asking for a plague of maintenance headaches?

BTW, how do you solve the problems with Dark Vader, the Lucas electrics?

Thanks for the posts everyone. Lucas electrics? Some folk say they're fine but most of my own Bs problems are electrical. I'd definitely want to see quality control improved right across the board including, in addition to better rust proofing, upgraded wiring loom with heavier gauge cable and relays where they'd do the most good.

The front suspension was pretty much lifted from the T series and the rear cart springs date from around the 18th century so they really had to do something about that. A lot of people fit Spax or similar, it would have been easy for Leyland or Aston to do the same 25 years ago.

The V6 engine would have been a great idea. I hadn't thought of that one. The V6 MGC got a lot of stick and didn't stay in production for long, but a 1980s V6 would have been an entirely different kettle of fish. I think a lot of SD1 parts could have been grafted on fairly easily.

EX236 would have made a fine midget replacement. I'd keep the B GT at least though if the new midget took over the B roadster's sales as well.

I wouldn't want to abandon the US market entirely but the 1970s safety and environmental laws there had really hurt the MG B to the point where it had become heavier, handled less well and gave out far less power due to all the anti pollution add ons that strangled the engine. Top speed of a US spec MGB was 90 mph. UK spec was still over the ton.

I think better compromises could have been reached in the mid 1970s. Those bumpers needn't have been so big and heavy really. Where the Triumph mafia just having another go at MG?

I'd see the V8 version coming in a few years earlier, with develoment beginning in 1968 as soon as the Rover-Buick V8 became available to Abingdon. I'd also price it a fair bit lower so that it's not competing with the likes of Jaguar and Austin Healey. The 1800 could continue until the next generation of engines is ready at the beginning of the 1980s when it would be replaced by the O series. At the same time the V8 gives way to the new V6 maybe?

I'd have liked to have seen Abingdon remain open. It seems it was a comparatively good factory compared to Longbridge, with staff a lot less militant about their tea breaks. Maybe if Aston Martin and BL where a bit more flexible in their negotiations they could have worked an alliance of some sort that would have kept the factory and the car and given it a future like the mini.

Just another thought. If the MGB could have been kept going until 1989 along with a midget replacement I wonder how that would have affected the development and launch of the Miata? Would it still have gone ahead? And if it had would it's success have inspired a rethink on a new MG?

There probably wouldn't be a Rover RV8 and I wonder if it would butterfly the mid engined MG sports cars of the 1990s and 21st century. Perhaps the classic rear wheel drive, front engined set up would prevail and we'd see a new MGB launched maintaining many of the original styling cues in much the same way as the BMW mini did.

the Sherpa Coupe was hopelessly outdated in the 1970s never mind trying to stretch it through the1980s as well

The B series engine was by then a niche product shared only with the petrol engined Sherpa/Fright Rover 200 Van ,arguably the Rover V8 was much more in demand for SD1s, Range Rovers, Stage I LWB landies/110s never mind the TR7/TR8 and the Emergency Services Spec Freight rover 300 (in either Police riot van or ambulance format).

as has previously been mentioned both the front and rear suspension of the MGB was hopelessly outdated.

The rational answer is to kill it and allow the TR7/8 the breathing space and funding to be developed properly (with the full-on dolomite sprint slant 4 / O series4 cyl base engine and the RV8 ) and to beat the QC issues out of it ...

Ah, but this quest to extend the life of a much loved, iconic car isn't a rational endeavour Zippy. It's one of those cars like the Morgan, the mini, the morris minor and the landrover that a lot of people are enthusiastic about. That's the reason I want it to stay in production (rather than the TR7, which I don't hate or disrespect, I just find comparatively uninteresting).
To illustrate the high regard for the MGB you only have to look at the numbers that still survive and are used in spite of the cost and effort it takes to maintain them. There are still thousands of them on the road in Britain alone. BMH can build you a new one from parts using a newly manufactured bodyshell and a reconditioned engine tuned to suit your taste. If people are willing to spend all that money for a car after it's gone out of production then I suggest they would have spent considerably less money on a version that was still in production during the 1980s.
The golf will still rule the road but there will be enough people still buying less capable cars because they have something in their DNA that the new hot hatches lack and that appeals to their particular tastes.

EAF602Whizz said:

The V6 engine would have been a great idea. I hadn't thought of that one. The V6 MGC got a lot of stick and didn't stay in production for long,

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The MGC engine was a straight 6. It was a bloody awful redesign of the old Morris C series 4 bearing crank engine that used to be in Healey 3000 cars. BL managed to redesign it for the Austin 3 litre and MGC cars and make it heavier, less powerful and less reliable despite the new 7 bearing crank. I think BL were supposed to be making a new boat anchor but got the blueprints mixed up.

fastmongrel said:

The MGC engine was a straight 6. It was a bloody awful redesign of the old Morris C series 4 bearing crank engine that used to be in Healey 3000 cars. BL managed to redesign it for the Austin 3 litre and MGC cars and make it heavier, less powerful and less reliable despite the new 7 bearing crank. I think BL were supposed to be making a new boat anchor but got the blueprints mixed up.

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Apparently there were stillborn plans to redesign the C-Series into a "D-Series" that was around 29% lighter and even spawned a 2.0 4-cylinder version though unfortunately it did not reach production.