A simple poll question. Do you, AH.com, consider the world of Harry Turtledove's Timeline-191, realistic in any sense? How would it have been viewed if it would have been posted as a TL here?
Is Timeline-191 realistic?
- Thread starter Armored Diplomacy
- Start date
RamscoopRaider
Donor
It is physically possible under the laws of physics as we know them
That said it is a very unlikely outcome given the POD
That said it is a very unlikely outcome given the POD
I'm not saying it bothers me, but it shouldn't be hailed as plausible either.
Wolfpaw
Banned
I voted for "Total ASB" but would have preferred a "Realistic ASB" option.
The peaceable abolition of Confederate slavery "because Britain and France said so" is just a huge WTF. The South didn't tolerate Southerners who spoke out against slavery; why the hell are they going to listen to a bunch of Europeans who are busy enough devouring Afro-Asia?
The peaceable abolition of Confederate slavery "because Britain and France said so" is just a huge WTF. The South didn't tolerate Southerners who spoke out against slavery; why the hell are they going to listen to a bunch of Europeans who are busy enough devouring Afro-Asia?
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Faeelin
Banned
I agree it's unlikely, but bear in mind that it's replaced with some sort of "serfdom" which seems to bar blacks from even setting up institutions of higher learning.
Wolfpaw
Banned
Yeah, and the passbook system. That's why I say it's "realistic" but it is ASB in that the cornerstone of Confederate society was slavery and this could not be gotten rid of so whimsically.
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its not all that plausible later on in the timeline, but its still a good story (Carsten's sunburn nothwithstanding); the rule of cool trumps absolute plausibility, but i still think alot of what goes on ITTL is pretty plausible (relatively speaking). personally, i like parallelism in AH, and am already using it to some degree in my ASB ATL
I've never read the novels (yet at least), though ever since I discovered AH three years ago, I've always found it fascinating to say the least. Heck, just reading about it on wiki, the Turtledove wiki and this site sort of hooked me onto the genre. I was younger, and it was a good intro into the genre. I still do like the story allot, and I hope to read the novels soon.
I feel as if the series is, how do I put this, "plausible enough under the circumstances, but some of it is a little bit of a stretch, but the implausibilities are totally passable". When I was younger when I discovered it, and had no problems with the plausibility. Know I recognize there are some flaws, albeit some minor. Right now in this post, I'll go over why I feel this way.
First off, I don't agree with everyone jumping on the series for being just a cut and paste rehash of OTL, and that it should have, for lack of a better term, "taken its own route". I though the parallelism was cool then and I don't have much of a problem with it know, even if it is a little bit of a stretch. Keep in mind, Turtledove is a sci-fi author. You know how in Sci-fi stuff there's sometimes an alternate universe where everything is similar but different. That's kinda what TL-191 is, and no I do not feel its ASB in that regard, because hows to say things can't be somewhat similar in another universe. Since we can't travel between universes, we'll never really know.
For example; the whole U.S. and C.S. and opposite sides of the European Alliance system is totally plausible. WWI happening as such was plausible was well, as with the Franco-Prussian War happening, a world war is inevitable. The rise of a revenchist and racist dictator in the CSA was also plausible, given the circumstances. Also, its not an exact copy of OTL.
Secondly, about people born after the POD who still exist, I don't too much have a problem with this. Turtledove did throw in allot of fictional characters so that works. He also changed some peoples names around, like Daniel MacArthur, and also creating "alternate verisons" of people, like Terry DeFrancis or the Engels Brothers. Again, that's a part of sci-fi. Allot of timelines take different views on this. FaBR has allot of OTL historical figures born after the POD, some radically different such as "Alphonse Capone". In the Union Forever, no figures born after 1863 exist. In my opinion, I'm good either way, but the likelihood of a persons existence depends on how close or far from the POD he or she was born, and if their parents are alive during the POD. I have no problem with having OTL figures exist in alternate timelines, and granted that things get more and more different farther away from the POD, its a given that an OTL person will be somewhat and/or very different. In TL-191, quite a few OTL figures are different.
Thought to be fair, people just have different views on how "alternate" an "alternate" should be. In short, I feel the parallelism and OTL people still existing is plausible enough. Sure it may almost, just almost, border on implausibility/ASB because its not all that alternate and butterflies are somewhat ignored, but again, we don't know how alternate an alternate universe get even get, considering we can't travel to other worlds. Besides, these implausibilities are only a little bit of stretch IMO, and not ASB, and are totally passable in my book.
In the end I voted for "near ASB but realistic somewhat". Not my exact answer mind you, but its closest to my answer of "plausible enough under the circumstances, but some of it is a little bit of a stretch, but the implausibilities are totally passable".
I feel as if the series is, how do I put this, "plausible enough under the circumstances, but some of it is a little bit of a stretch, but the implausibilities are totally passable". When I was younger when I discovered it, and had no problems with the plausibility. Know I recognize there are some flaws, albeit some minor. Right now in this post, I'll go over why I feel this way.
First off, I don't agree with everyone jumping on the series for being just a cut and paste rehash of OTL, and that it should have, for lack of a better term, "taken its own route". I though the parallelism was cool then and I don't have much of a problem with it know, even if it is a little bit of a stretch. Keep in mind, Turtledove is a sci-fi author. You know how in Sci-fi stuff there's sometimes an alternate universe where everything is similar but different. That's kinda what TL-191 is, and no I do not feel its ASB in that regard, because hows to say things can't be somewhat similar in another universe. Since we can't travel between universes, we'll never really know.
For example; the whole U.S. and C.S. and opposite sides of the European Alliance system is totally plausible. WWI happening as such was plausible was well, as with the Franco-Prussian War happening, a world war is inevitable. The rise of a revenchist and racist dictator in the CSA was also plausible, given the circumstances. Also, its not an exact copy of OTL.
Secondly, about people born after the POD who still exist, I don't too much have a problem with this. Turtledove did throw in allot of fictional characters so that works. He also changed some peoples names around, like Daniel MacArthur, and also creating "alternate verisons" of people, like Terry DeFrancis or the Engels Brothers. Again, that's a part of sci-fi. Allot of timelines take different views on this. FaBR has allot of OTL historical figures born after the POD, some radically different such as "Alphonse Capone". In the Union Forever, no figures born after 1863 exist. In my opinion, I'm good either way, but the likelihood of a persons existence depends on how close or far from the POD he or she was born, and if their parents are alive during the POD. I have no problem with having OTL figures exist in alternate timelines, and granted that things get more and more different farther away from the POD, its a given that an OTL person will be somewhat and/or very different. In TL-191, quite a few OTL figures are different.
Thought to be fair, people just have different views on how "alternate" an "alternate" should be. In short, I feel the parallelism and OTL people still existing is plausible enough. Sure it may almost, just almost, border on implausibility/ASB because its not all that alternate and butterflies are somewhat ignored, but again, we don't know how alternate an alternate universe get even get, considering we can't travel to other worlds. Besides, these implausibilities are only a little bit of stretch IMO, and not ASB, and are totally passable in my book.
In the end I voted for "near ASB but realistic somewhat". Not my exact answer mind you, but its closest to my answer of "plausible enough under the circumstances, but some of it is a little bit of a stretch, but the implausibilities are totally passable".
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Faeelin
Banned
My problem is that you could tell a really good story about the Civil War and WW1 being a national tragedy, and the struggle of Americans to overcome it. There was a really good speech at the end of the last book where the American President says "there was a time when a man from Florida and a man from Massachussetts would both call themselves Americans, and it would mean something. If we work at it, it will again."
Turtledove basically set out to drag American exceptionalism through the dirt. But I think you could do an even better story about the survival of American exceptionalism.
Turtledove basically set out to drag American exceptionalism through the dirt. But I think you could do an even better story about the survival of American exceptionalism.
Almost-impossible, but with some realistic aspects.
Among other things, I don't think the United States would have flat out fucked itself in the foot like that in the 1881 war.
I'm pretty sure everyone, even the Allies, knew that slavery would be abolished but in name only.
Among other things, I don't think the United States would have flat out fucked itself in the foot like that in the 1881 war.
I'm pretty sure everyone, even the Allies, knew that slavery would be abolished but in name only.
That was one of my biggest problems with the first book, but it was still a worthwhile read.
The books have their moments of ASBness, but atleast through 1916 I can believe it possible under the right circumstances, and from 1917-1933 I can still buy it. Overall it was good.
It's not ASB because it could theoretically happen (I.E. there was no magic or anything). However, the Confederacy was already really lucky IOTL, and to have it not only win the war but become a great power is rather unlikely without very good leadership, and even then...
The Confederacy was not a great power in TL-191. Even the characters said so.